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Offline Cariad

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John 3:5 - water and spirit
« on: December 05, 2017, 05:44:05 PM »
'Jesus answered,
" Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and of the spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'

(John 3:5)

The literal wording of this verse is, 'except a man shall have been begotten of water and spirit.' There is no article ('the') attached to either of the two nouns. 

You may ask, 'Well what difference does that make?'  Well, it means that instead of considering 'water' and 'spirit' as two separate things, we can be open to the grammatical fact that there is a 'figure of speech' here, where two words are used but only one thing meant (called: hendiadys or 'two for one').  You, like myself, probably break out in a sweat whenever grammatical terms are mentioned: but it is nevertheless there, and recognising it makes a difference to our understanding of this text.

The Lord is speaking to Nicodemus of 'earthly things' (John 3:12 KJV); and as 'a master in Israel,' he knew (or ought to have known) perfectly well the prophecy of Ezek. 36:25-27, concerning the kingdom (not the Church). Concerning Israel, in the day of their restoration to their own land, Jehovah had declared: 'Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean ... And I will put My spirit within you, ' etc.,

The cleansing of that day is not to be with literal water, as in the ceremonial cleansings of the Law, but with the Spirit of God.

Therefore, only one thing is meant:- 'Except a man be begotten of water, yes - and spiritual water too, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'  That spiritual water stands, by another figure of speech,('metonymy' - 'the change of one noun for another related noun') for the Holy Spirit Himself: is clear from John 7:38,39: 'water - (But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive ... )'

Therefore, there is no reference here to ceremonial or ecclesiastical water - but to that baptism of the Spirit which is one indispensable condition of entering into the kingdom of God, 'a moral sphere', which includes and embraces the Church of God, here and now, as well as the future kingdom foretold by God through the prophets.


In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Ref:- ('Figures of speech used in Scripture')

https://levendwater.org/books/figures_of_speech/index.htm

https://levendwater.org/books/figures_of_speech/index.htm



Offline wincam

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Re: John 3:5 - water and spirit
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2017, 08:55:12 PM »
'Jesus answered,
" Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and of the spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'

(John 3:5)

The literal wording of this verse is, 'except a man shall have been begotten of water and spirit.' There is no article ('the') attached to either of the two nouns.  You may ask, 'Well what difference does that make?'  Well, it means that instead of considering 'water' and 'spirit' as two separate things, we can be open to the grammatical fact that there is a 'figure of speech' here, where two words are used but only one thing meant (called: hendiadys or 'two for one').  Yes, I know, you, like myself, probably break out in a sweat whenever grammatical terms are mentioned: but it is nevertheless there, and recognising it makes a difference in our understanding of this text.

The Lord is speaking to Nicodemus of 'earthly things' (John 3:12 KJV); and as 'a master in Israel,' he knew (or ought to have known) perfectly well the prophecy of Ezek. 36:25-27, concerning the kingdom (not the Church). Concerning Israel, in the day of their restoration to their own land, Jehovah had declared: 'Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean ... And I will put My spirit within you, ' etc.,

The cleansing of that day is not to be with literal water, as in the ceremonial cleansings of the Law, but with the Spirit of God.

Therefore, only one thing is meant:- 'Except a man be begotten of water, yes - and spiritual water too, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'  That spiritual water stands, by another figure ('metonymy' - 'the change of one noun for another related noun')) for the Holy Spirit Himself: as is clear from John 7:38,39: 'water - (But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive ... )'

Therefore, there is no reference here to ceremonial or ecclesiastical water - but to that baptism of the Spirit which is one indispensable condition of entering into the kingdom of God 'a moral sphere', which includes and embraces the Church of God, here and now, as well as the future kingdom foretold by God through the prophets.


Ref: - ('Figures of Speech used in Scripture')

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

https://levendwater.org/books/figures_of_speech/index.htm

'Jesus answered,
" Verily, verily, I say unto thee,
Except a man be born of water and of the spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'

(John 3:5)

The literal wording of this verse is, 'except a man shall have been begotten of water and spirit.' There is no article ('the') attached to either of the two nouns.  You may ask, 'Well what difference does that make?'  Well, it means that instead of considering 'water' and 'spirit' as two separate things, we can be open to the grammatical fact that there is a 'figure of speech' here, where two words are used but only one thing meant (called: hendiadys or 'two for one').  Yes, I know, you, like myself, probably break out in a sweat whenever grammatical terms are mentioned: but it is nevertheless there, and recognising it makes a difference in our understanding of this text.

The Lord is speaking to Nicodemus of 'earthly things' (John 3:12 KJV); and as 'a master in Israel,' he knew (or ought to have known) perfectly well the prophecy of Ezek. 36:25-27, concerning the kingdom (not the Church). Concerning Israel, in the day of their restoration to their own land, Jehovah had declared: 'Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean ... And I will put My spirit within you, ' etc.,

The cleansing of that day is not to be with literal water, as in the ceremonial cleansings of the Law, but with the Spirit of God.

Therefore, only one thing is meant:- 'Except a man be begotten of water, yes - and spiritual water too, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.'  That spiritual water stands, by another figure ('metonymy' - 'the change of one noun for another related noun')) for the Holy Spirit Himself: as is clear from John 7:38,39: 'water - (But this spake He of the Spirit, which they that believe on Him should receive ... )'

Therefore, there is no reference here to ceremonial or ecclesiastical water - but to that baptism of the Spirit which is one indispensable condition of entering into the kingdom of God 'a moral sphere', which includes and embraces the Church of God, here and now, as well as the future kingdom foretold by God through the prophets.


Ref: - ('Figures of Speech used in Scripture')

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

https://levendwater.org/books/figures_of_speech/index.htm


no need for long tirades and much ados of nothing or adding or subtracting to what is very clear without mudding the water and blaming the H/S for confusion etc - wincam
https://levendwater.org/books/figures_of_speech/index.htm
carpe diem/semper fidelis

Offline Cariad

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Re: John 3:5 - water and spirit
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2017, 09:23:10 PM »

no need for long tirades and much ados of nothing or adding or subtracting to what is very clear without mudding the water and blaming the H/S for confusion etc - wincam

Thank you, @wincam, though forgive me, but I don't understand.

Grace and peace
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: John 3:5 - water and spirit
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2017, 04:16:30 PM »
Hi
I think what Wincam is getting at is we don't need to say anything or interpret anything  just believe what the scripture say and I can agree with that but the question is that's easy enough to do when you have read the bible and believe it is the word of God and is the truth.

But what about all those who have not read the bible and do not believe how are they going to be enticed to ask questions or check out what the scriptures say the need a little incentive something to get there teeth into what better then something silly I have written when they say that can't be right and pick up a bible to check it out and suddenly there hooked.

so the question is why are we here is it for our own gratification or is it to spread Gods word over the internet what we write on here can be read all over the world that's why I think it's important to post scripture as much as possible you never know who will read it.

Heb 4:12  For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
   


Love and Peace
Dave