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Offline Cariad

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Luke 16:19-31
« on: December 03, 2017, 01:50:58 PM »
'There was a certain rich man,
which was clothed in purple and fine linen,
and fared sumptuously every day:
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus,
which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table:
moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.'

(Luke 16:19-21) 

Hello there,

I have isolated Luke 16:19-31 from it's context in order to look at just what it says.

Looking at the verses quoted above, and the contrast between the two men, the only difference is that the one is rich and the other poor.  The lives they lived, and the conditions in which they lived, were influenced only by the fact that one was rich and the other poor.

'And it came to pass,
that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:
the rich man also died, and was buried;
and in hell (hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments,
and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

(Luk. 16:23)
 
Both men died, but only the rich man is said to have been buried in a grave (or in hades, translated 'hell' [meaning:the place of the dead]
The poor man, upon death, is said to have been carried by the angels unto Abraham's bosom! 

To be 'in the bosom' of another, in Scripture, refers to the act of reclining at meals: where any one person, if he leaned back, would be, 'in the bosom' of the other (John 13:23; 21:20 KJV), it was also a token of favour and love (John 19:26; 20:2; 21:7 KJV).

What had either man done to deserve these differing circumstances? Other than being either rich or poor!

'And he cried and said,
"Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus,
that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue;
for I am tormented in this flame."

(Luk. 16:24)
 
This dead and buried body is conscious, and can feel pain and know torment of mind, it can see, hear and speak!
There is flame in this place! Yet Hades is never translated in Scripture in association with fire, only Gehenna. In fact, 'hades' (hell) itself will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev.20:14)

'But Abraham said,
"Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things,
and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed:
so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot;
neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

(Luk. 16:25-26)

It would seem from this reply that the rich man was being tormented because he had enjoyed the benefits that riches bring! Is the possession of wealth sinful then!?

Whereas the poor man was receiving comfort from Abraham (himself dead) for the fact that he had been poor! Is poverty meritorious then?
 
So heavenly blessing and hell's torment can be received on the basis of the circumstances we find ourselves in while alive! Is this right?
Also, even when dead, we are yet alive!  Is this so?

'Then he said," I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."'

(Luk. 16:27-28)

This dead man is able to reason! 

'Abraham saith unto him," They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."
And he said, "Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent."
And he said unto him, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

(Luk 16:29-31)

This makes clear, that, in order for the poor man (Lazarus) to go to the rich man's brothers he would need to have risen from the dead!

-------------

Doesn't this inspection make it obvious, that the Lord Jesus Christ is not using this story to teach, but to expose the traditions of the Pharisees?
 
Abraham's bosom is part of Pharisaic teaching.  It is they also who would say to the poor, 'Ah! but you will have your blessings then', rather than have to reach into their own pockets and provide for the poor during their lifetime.

This exposure in the story of the rich man and Lazarus, was the culmination of incidents where the Lord Jesus Christ had suffered the derision of the Pharisees, and He rebounds on them concerning their denial of the Word of God in regard to many things, including the state of the dead, as this story of the rich man and Lazarus seeks to show.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad



Offline davetaff

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Re: Luke 16:19-31
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2017, 05:12:10 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for this thought provoking thread  much to think about my first thoughts are should there be any poor as Lazarus was in Israel  if Israel followed the Law.
following the law meant that the poor and needy would be looked after it would be the rich mans duty to cloth and feed him to show him loving kindness.

Mat 22:39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
   


Lazarus was the rich mans neighbour but he loved his wealth more

1Ti 6:10  For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
 


Maybe this is why our Lord directed there attention to the law and the prophets the law was the reason why Lazarus and the rich man ended up where they did.

Love and Peace
Dave
 

Offline wincam

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Re: Luke 16:19-31
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2017, 10:23:09 PM »
what is here as elsewhere referred to as 'Abrahams bosom' is elsewhere regarded as 'Paradise' and in the modern Church idiom as the limbo of infants and of 'The fathers' like Abraham/Moses/Noah trying to find a way until it arrives in the resurrection - this is why reincarnation before the resurrection was the only way imho - twinc
carpe diem/semper fidelis

Offline Cariad

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Re: Luke 16:19-31
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2017, 11:34:34 PM »
@ davetaff
@ wincam

Thank you both for your input.

In the Talmud, the terms, 'paradise', 'carried away by angels' and 'Abraham's bosom' are to be found. 'The great gulf' spoken of, is also a matter of record.

If Abraham's bosom is indeed paradise as some suppose, then it must also be supposed that it was there that the Lord and the thief went on the day they died, if tradition is to be believed (Luke 23:43). Is that what you believe?

The teaching of the Pharasees had much in common with Romanists and Spiritists in this present day. It was the teaching of the Pharisees which made the Word of God 'of none effect' by their traditions (Matt.15:1-9).

They taught that the dead could go to, and communicate with the living; and in this story the Lord corrects them, by showing that no one could do so apart from resurrection (Luke 16:30-31). 

So this story was used to both correct their error, and to teach them, it seems.

Thankfully we have those very Scriptures that the Pharisees negated by their tradition: and they teach plainly that, 'the dead know not anything', and when man's breath departs, 'in that very day his thoughts perish'.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad







Offline davetaff

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Re: Luke 16:19-31
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2017, 02:33:16 PM »
Hi
Abrahams bosom to me it gives a picture of rest as the Christians rest in Christ ( sleep ) so the Jew rest in Abrahams bosom I believe that Israel is a mirror Image of Christ.

As for paradise I believe it is this wonderful earth God created for man to tend and will be recreated in the new heaven and earth as mentioned in revelations.

'And it came to pass,
that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:
the rich man also died, and was buried;
and in hell (hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments,
and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(Luk. 16:23)   


I have problems with this it seams to show that both were alive in some form after death but this contradicts the rest of scripture so I have to keep  in mind this is a parable and not reality.
I believe that it was the spirit of Lazarus that was carried to Abrahams bosom for we know the physical cannot enter the spiritual world the same as the Christian sleeps in Christ both awaiting the resurrection.
As for the rich man he is jest buried in the grave and there he sleeps waiting for the resurrection to judgement.

so how could the rich man see Lazarus I don't think he could as such but This is our Lord illustrating to the Pharisees what it would be like in the end times when they were outside of paradise and Lazarus on the inside they would be in torment when they realise how wrong they have been.

Love and Peace
Dave       

Offline wincam

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Re: Luke 16:19-31
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2017, 09:12:40 PM »
'There was a certain rich man,
which was clothed in purple and fine linen,
and fared sumptuously every day:
And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus,
which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table:
moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.'

(Luke 16:19-21) 

Hello there,

I have isolated Luke 16:19-31 from it's context in order to look at just what it says.

Looking at the verses quoted above, and the contrast between the two men, the only difference is that the one is rich and the other poor.  The lives they lived, and the conditions in which they lived, were influenced only by the fact that one was rich and the other poor.

'And it came to pass,
that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:
the rich man also died, and was buried;
and in hell (hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments,
and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

(Luk. 16:23)
 
Both men died, but only the rich man is said to have been buried in a grave (or in hades, translated 'hell' [meaning:the place of the dead]
The poor man, upon death, is said to have been carried by the angels unto Abraham's bosom! 

To be 'in the bosom' of another, in Scripture, refers to the act of reclining at meals: where any one person, if he leaned back, would be, 'in the bosom' of the other (John 13:23; 21:20 KJV), it was also a token of favour and love (John 19:26; 20:2; 21:7 KJV).

What had either man done to deserve these differing circumstances? Other than being either rich or poor!

'And he cried and said,
"Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus,
that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue;
for I am tormented in this flame."

(Luk. 16:24)
 
This dead and buried body is conscious, and can feel pain and know torment of mind, it can see, hear and speak!
There is flame in this place! Yet Hades is never translated in Scripture in association with fire, only Gehenna. In fact, 'hades' (hell) itself will be cast into the lake of fire (Rev.20:14)

'But Abraham said,
"Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things,
and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed:
so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot;
neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence."

(Luk. 16:25-26)

It would seem from this reply that the rich man was being tormented because he had enjoyed the benefits that riches bring! Is the possession of wealth sinful then!?

Whereas the poor man was receiving comfort from Abraham (himself dead) for the fact that he had been poor! Is poverty meritorious then?
 
So heavenly blessing and hell's torment can be received on the basis of the circumstances we find ourselves in while alive! Is this right?
Also, even when dead, we are yet alive!  Is this so?

'Then he said," I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."'

(Luk. 16:27-28)

This dead man is able to reason! 

'Abraham saith unto him," They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."
And he said, "Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent."
And he said unto him, "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

(Luk 16:29-31)

This makes clear, that, in order for the poor man (Lazarus) to go to the rich man's brothers he would need to have risen from the dead!

-------------

Doesn't this inspection make it obvious, that the Lord Jesus Christ is not using this story to teach, but to expose the traditions of the Pharisees?
 
Abraham's bosom is part of Pharisaic teaching.  It is they also who would say to the poor, 'Ah! but you will have your blessings then', rather than have to reach into their own pockets and provide for the poor during their lifetime.

This exposure in the story of the rich man and Lazarus, was the culmination of incidents where the Lord Jesus Christ had suffered the derision of the Pharisees, and He rebounds on them concerning their denial of the Word of God in regard to many things, including the state of the dead, as this story of the rich man and Lazarus seeks to show.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Hi
Abrahams bosom to me it gives a picture of rest as the Christians rest in Christ ( sleep ) so the Jew rest in Abrahams bosom I believe that Israel is a mirror Image of Christ.

As for paradise I believe it is this wonderful earth God created for man to tend and will be recreated in the new heaven and earth as mentioned in revelations.

'And it came to pass,
that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom:
the rich man also died, and was buried;
and in hell (hades) he lift up his eyes, being in torments,
and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(Luk. 16:23)   


I have problems with this it seams to show that both were alive in some form after death but this contradicts the rest of scripture so I have to keep  in mind this is a parable and not reality.
I believe that it was the spirit of Lazarus that was carried to Abrahams bosom for we know the physical cannot enter the spiritual world the same as the Christian sleeps in Christ both awaiting the resurrection.
As for the rich man he is jest buried in the grave and there he sleeps waiting for the resurrection to judgement.

so how could the rich man see Lazarus I don't think he could as such but This is our Lord illustrating to the Pharisees what it would be like in the end times when they were outside of paradise and Lazarus on the inside they would be in torment when they realise how wrong they have been.

Love and Peace
Dave       


again and again we have it - long tirades and much ados adding and subtracting and confusing what is clear and then accepting and demanding acceptance of this confusion and nonsense - those on the outside of paradise realise that those on the inside will be born again as little Christian children and will simply simply believe as required[Jn 20:31 - wincam
carpe diem/semper fidelis

Offline Cariad

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Re: Luke 16:19-31
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2017, 09:18:57 PM »

again and again we have it - long tirades and much ados adding and subtracting and confusing what is clear and then accepting and demanding acceptance of this confusion and nonsense - those on the outside of paradise realise that those on the inside will be born again as little Christian children and will simply simply believe as required[Jn 20:31 - wincam

Sorry @wincam,  I can't understand your reasoning., but thank you for responding, @davetaff too.

May God's will be done, His Name glorified.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: Luke 16:19-31
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2017, 04:52:03 PM »
Hi
If I may move on to the next section.

'And he cried and said,
"Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus,
that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue;
for I am tormented in this flame."
(Luk. 16:24)   


again it would appear that the rich man is speaking to Abraham and we no that this can not be because in the next section we are told there is a great gulf between Abraham and the rich man so for this reason we must treat it as the parable it is and not reality.

I think the flame mentioned here is most proberbly the lake of fire mentioned in revelations question what is the lake of fire ii have wondered if it could be Gods passionate all consuming Love.

Heb 12:29  For our God is a consuming fire.      

Then we have

Deu 9:3  Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.
   


What dose consuming fire mean to consume something you take it in to your self it seems God had done everything necessary all Israel needed to do was take possession.

Love and Peace
Dave