Author Topic: Modern Third Heaven and Near Death (NDE) experiences  (Read 77 times)

Description: Its not just the prophets who visited heaven.

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Online francis drake

Modern Third Heaven and Near Death (NDE) experiences
« on: December 02, 2017, 08:03:34 PM »
I originally posted this in @Cariad's thread Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error.   https://www.1faith.co.uk/?topic=9951.new#new.

I then decided it was better to start a fresh thread because I'm frightened of Cariad's response if I derail her thread.
(No, that's not really true.)
Nevertheless its quite likely it would have derailed that thread, although the topics are directly connected.

There are countless testimonies of people who have had Third Heaven experiences similar to the prophets and patriarchs, or have had near death experiences (NDEs) during life threatening physical trauma.

The vast majority of these testimonies report witnessing similar things, as their spirit is taken into the Heavenly realm.

Obviously not everyone's report is the completely identical, any more than 100 people describing a visit to Blackpool would be identical. Nevertheless most key features would be the same, and are the same for those who have experienced heaven.

There are also many who have frightening experiences of demons and hell before they are resuscitated. They also have comparable stories.

As with any testimony, there are also boasters and deceivers, but that's where Godly discernment comes in.

Many of these testimonies come from little children who have no axe to grind and no agenda.

An interesting aspect of verification is that often those who leave their bodies have a very clear view of what is happening around the site of their NDE. ie. in the hospital room where they can see the emergency procedure being frantically carried on their dead body. They often report what they can see happening in adjacent rooms or outside the building. Some even report back clear descriptions of articles they have seen on the hospital roof, totally impossible in the real world.

Some have met their dead relatives in heaven, coming back with information that they could never have known.

One small child came back with greetings from his "sister", who had been still born prior to his own birth. His mother was shocked but amazingly healed to know her son had met her lost child.
https://www.1faith.co.uk/?topic=9951.new#new


Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline John

Re: Modern Third Heaven and Near Death (NDE) experiences
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2017, 08:13:59 PM »
What are you trying to say Francis.
                                                         Or are you asking a question about how we view nde's etc?

For my self I see them as interesting and as comfirmation that there is life after death, but that really is it.
I would treat any 'message' from someone who'd had such an exp[erience withcare, check it complied with the bible and want to know whether other 'messages' given by that person had ever failed.
If they had would ignore what they had to say.

Online francis drake

Re: Modern Third Heaven and Near Death (NDE) experiences
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2017, 10:13:30 PM »
What are you trying to say Francis.
                                                         Or are you asking a question about how we view nde's etc?

For my self I see them as interesting and as comfirmation that there is life after death, but that really is it.
I would treat any 'message' from someone who'd had such an exp[erience withcare, check it complied with the bible and want to know whether other 'messages' given by that person had ever failed.
If they had would ignore what they had to say.

Just trying to challenge the mystique about heaven being around us in the here and now, not some distant future.

Its not about any particular message at all, although many have given descriptions of what they have seen and learnt. We can compare it with scripture only up to a certain point as scripture is silent on lots of things.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

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Re: Modern Third Heaven and Near Death (NDE) experiences
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2017, 01:15:36 PM »
Hi Frances
I came across this verse this morning in my daily read and thought it may be relevant

. Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:     

So that people have dreams and visions of heaven is not in question is it but having dreams and visions dose not mean they go to physically to heaven.

Even St Paul did not know if he was in the body or the Spirit so what he saw may jest be a vision of the third heaven.

I have also bean thinking about the third heaven what dose it mean is it the highest or the lowest heaven is the three heaven the Father Son and Holy Spirit with the Father being heaven 1 the highest.
So the heaven Paul saw was a Spiritual one what he saw he was not allowed to tell us.
Besides in the highest heaven God would be and no one has seen God. This is only speculation.

Love and Peace
Dave


Online francis drake

Re: Modern Third Heaven and Near Death (NDE) experiences
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2017, 08:02:07 PM »
Hi Frances
I came across this verse this morning in my daily read and thought it may be relevant

. Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:     

So that people have dreams and visions of heaven is not in question is it but having dreams and visions dose not mean they go to physically to heaven.
I have repeatedly said it was the human spirit that visited heaven whilst the physical body remained behind.
Heaven is in the spiritual realm, earth is in the physical realm.
Visiting heaven usually occurs in the spirit, although Paul seems to have thrown a spanner in the works!
Quote
Even St Paul did not know if he was in the body or the Spirit so what he saw may jest be a vision of the third heaven.
Lets see what Paul actually says.-
2Cor12v1Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago?whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows?such a man was caught up to the third heaven.
This clearly states that Paul actually visited heaven in person, excluding the idea that he was observing a vision from afar.

3And I know how such a man?whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows?
The question here is whether his human spirit travelled alone, (an out of body experience), or whether his human spirit travelled there in his physical body.

Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

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Re: Modern Third Heaven and Near Death (NDE) experiences
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2017, 02:55:32 PM »
Hi Frances
Thanks for your reply I have been wondering how do we know it was Paul who went to the third heaven he only says he knows a man who went may have been someone else I know tradition has said it was Paul if it was why not say it was him.

Then we Have

1Jn 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
   


We have to test the spirits all these who say they have been to heaven in the spirit or OB experience how can we test what they say do they all mention God and Christ are they Christians why have they been to heaven when ordinary run of the mill Christians never do go.

Love and Peace
Dave

Online francis drake

Re: Modern Third Heaven and Near Death (NDE) experiences
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2017, 06:55:18 PM »
Hi Frances
Thanks for your reply I have been wondering how do we know it was Paul who went to the third heaven he only says he knows a man who went may have been someone else I know tradition has said it was Paul if it was why not say it was him.
Haha, I don't think that would stand up in court Dave!
But even if it was another man, it would make no difference to the meaning.
Quote
Then we Have

1Jn 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
   


We have to test the spirits all these who say they have been to heaven in the spirit or OB experience how can we test what they say do they all mention God and Christ are they Christians why have they been to heaven when ordinary run of the mill Christians never do go.
You need to take into account,-
A) that the realm of the spirit, or heavenly realm is also the home base of Satan and his demons,
B) and not everyone who has an out of body experience is a believer.

In fact occultists sometimes practise what is called astral travel or astral projection. This is where their using drugs or meditation their soul is made to leave the body and go places in the spirit realm.

Additionally, there are clear reports of some who don't know the Lord descending down to hell like the rich man in the parable, and then being snatched back to earth as their human body is resuscitated.
They experience terror which causes some to repent.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Online francis drake

Re: Modern Third Heaven and Near Death (NDE) experiences
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2017, 07:42:21 PM »
1Jn 4:1  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
1Jn 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
   


We have to test the spirits all these who say they have been to heaven in the spirit or OB experience how can we test what they say do they all mention God and Christ are they Christians why have they been to heaven when ordinary run of the mill Christians never do go.

I posted this one for you Dave, its on my other testimony thread.
https://www.1faith.co.uk/?topic=9966.msg67763#msg67763

As you can see, this former Muslim has a clear testimony of Jesus.
https://www.1faith.co.uk/?topic=9966.msg67763#msg67763
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)