Author Topic: So great a cloud of witnesses.  (Read 80 times)

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Offline Cariad

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Re: So great a cloud of witnesses.
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2017, 12:35:30 PM »
My apologies @Cariad and thanks for clearing that up.
Likewise I ask you, what scriptural basis do you have that the spirit has no life in the interim period between bodily death and resurrection? Ecc12v7 certainly doesn't say that.

Here are two dead men whose spirits were very much alive.
Matt17v2There He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3Suddenly Moses and Elijah appeared before them, talking with Jesus.

Here's another dead man alive in his spirit.
1Sam28v13 ...........And the woman said to Saul, ?I see a divine being coming up out of the earth.? 14He said to her, ?What is his form?? And she said, ?An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe.? And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.
      15Then Samuel said to Saul, ?Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?? And Saul answered, ?I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me............

@francis drake

Hello f.d.,

See the thread, 'The Grave', Reply#54, entered today, which covers the question of the nature of the spirit of man, I believe.
https://www.1faith.co.uk/?topic=9776.msg67543;topicseen#msg67543.

I believe that the reference you have given, referring to the occasion when Saul enquired of a woman with a familiar spirit, in which she says she sees Samuel, and that he speaks to Saul, is not in fact Samuel, but a deceiving spirit impersonating Samuel, as happens even today when mediums say they are speaking to the dead, or that the dead are speaking through them.  We are not told so, if fact the text gives every impression that it is in fact Samuel who speaks, but I do not believe it is actually him. Which does not sit comfortably with me, for I would not normally go beyond what is written.

Notice the direction that Samuel is said to come from, 'up' and not 'down'.  From the earth, and not from heaven.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Cariad
https://www.1faith.co.uk/?topic=9776.msg67543;topicseen#msg67543

Offline davetaff

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Re: So great a cloud of witnesses.
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2017, 12:50:17 PM »
Hi Frances
You said

Quote
. Dave, this is a silly waste of time and space that says nothing of value for your stance.
Sleep is just a metaphor for the body not waking up after death.

It says zilch about what happens to the human spirit one way or another!

Yawn.zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz     

I take it from this that you don't have an answer otherwise you would have given it.

The body dose not sleep in the grave it rots it returns to the dust from which it was created.
The resurrection body is a new body the same as our Lord had after his resurrection.

. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

 36  Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

 37  And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

 38  But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

 39  All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

 40  There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

 41  There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

 42  So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

 43  It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

 44  It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

 45  And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

 46  Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

 47  The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 48  As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

 49  And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

 50  Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

 51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

 52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

 54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.       


From the above I deduce that the dead are raised up here on earth not in heaven.
And if you read Revelations you see that heaven comes down to us heaven is where God is and he will be in us and we in him God will be all in all.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Cariad

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Re: So great a cloud of witnesses.
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2017, 12:56:27 PM »
My apologies @Cariad and thanks for clearing that up.
Likewise I ask you, what scriptural basis do you have that the spirit has no life in the interim period between bodily death and resurrection? Ecc12v7 certainly doesn't say that.
@francis drake

Hello again  f.d.,

I did not say that the spirit of man has no life. It is the breath of God which gives us life; and it, being breath, simply goes back to it's source - to God Himself. (compare Num 16:22; Job 33:4; Eccl.12:7; Isa.42:5; Zech.12:1)

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

* Breath of life: Gen.2:7; 6:17; 7:15, 22.

Online francis drake

Re: So great a cloud of witnesses.
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2017, 06:27:46 PM »
@francis drake

Hello again  f.d.,

I did not say that the spirit of man has no life. It is the breath of God which gives us life; and it, being breath, simply goes back to it's source - to God Himself. (compare Num 16:22; Job 33:4; Eccl.12:7; Isa.42:5; Zech.12:1)
Here's what you said in Post No6, which sure looks like what I said.

Quote from: Cariad
You appear to be under the the impression that I do not believe that the Spirit leaves the body at death, yet I have repeatedly quoted Ecclesiastes 12:7, which states that very thing.  Of course the breath of life or spirit leaves the body: but where we differ is in regard to what the spirit is .  You appear to believe that it has an existence outside of the body, and has all the functions that the body provided, ie., The ability to see, hear, and so on.  Yet what scriptural basis do you have for that?
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Online francis drake

Re: So great a cloud of witnesses.
« Reply #12 on: November 24, 2017, 06:34:49 PM »
Hi Frances
You said

I take it from this that you don't have an answer otherwise you would have given it.

The body dose not sleep in the grave it rots it returns to the dust from which it was created.
The resurrection body is a new body the same as our Lord had after his resurrection.

Of course the body rots Dave. Sleep is just a metaphor for it that's all.
Its like we politely say, "Doris has passed away" rather that "Doris is dead".
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)