Author Topic: So great a cloud of witnesses.  (Read 81 times)

Description: Who is watching who?

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online francis drake

So great a cloud of witnesses.
« on: November 23, 2017, 10:19:26 AM »
Hebrews12v1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

This scripture pictures a race.
We are the runners.

But who are the witnesses?

The answer to that is listed in Hebrews11.

4By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain,

5By faith Enoch was translated not to see death,

7By faith Noah,

8By faith Abraham,

11By faith also Sarah,

Isaac Jacob Joseph Moses Rahab.............

32And what more shall I say? For the time will fail me, telling of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, also David, and Samuel, and the prophets,

39And these all, having been commended through the faith, did not receive the promise, 40God having planned something better for us, so that not apart from us, they should be made perfect.


All the above and millions more, having run their own race of faith, are now witnesses to the race we each run today.

But lets look a little deeper at the words of Hebrews12v1.

v1 "..................since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses.............,"

Surrounded
Strong's 4029
perikeimai: to lie around
Original Word: περίκειμαι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: perikeimai
Phonetic Spelling: (per-ik'-i-mahee)
Short Definition: I surround, am surrounded with
Definition: I lie about, surround; I am encompassed, surrounded, or clothed with, am in submission to.


Cloud
Strong's 3509
nephos: a mass of clouds, a cloud
Original Word: νέφος, ους, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: nephos
Phonetic Spelling: (nef'-os)
Short Definition: a cloud, multitude, great company
Definition: a cloud; met: a dense crowd, a multitude, great company.

In addition to Strong's definition, the Greek word nephos, translated ?clouds,? has an additional meaning that is very exciting when understood in this context. In ancient, classical Greek times, the word ?clouds? was used to describe the highest seats in the bleachers of a stadium. The seats at the very top of the stadium were called the clouds because they were so high up in the air. If you had gone to a sports competition with a ticket for one of these seats, your usher might have said, ?Your seat is in the clouds today.? This meant you?d be seated in the highest row available in the bleachers.
In similar fashion, in theatre language of today, if someone is seated high up on the balcony, we would say he is "up in the gods"

Witness
Strong's 3144
martus: a witness
Original Word: μάρτυς, υρος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: martus
Phonetic Spelling: (mar'-toos)
Short Definition: a witness
Definition: a witness; an eye- or ear-witness.

In every scripture reference to the word translated witness, it always means the same as it does today, a watcher who has seen the evidence before his own eyes.

Thus we see that all the saints that have gone before us are not dead or asleep in the grave, but alive in the spirit where they can witness what goes on down here, and witness how we run our race of faith.




Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1470
  • Total likes: 107
  • Thanked: 45 times
  • Gender: Male
  • New :God is Love
Re: So great a cloud of witnesses.
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2017, 02:36:48 PM »
Hi Frances
You said
Quote
In every scripture reference to the word translated witness, it always means the same as it does today, a watcher who has seen the evidence before his own eyes.

Thus we see that all the saints that have gone before us are not dead or asleep in the grave, but alive in the spirit where they can witness what goes on down here, and witness how we run our race of faith.
   

Yes a witness is someone who testifies to what they have see and this is all those who have testified for God through out the bible and there testimony is true.
[/quote]
The context given in the rest of the verse denies that Dave.
Quote
As for your last statment it dose not make sense why on earth would they need to witness about what we do down here there is absolutely no need.
Quite simply because those in heaven and us down here are all part of one whole body. Read the preceding verse.-
Heb11v39And these all, having been commended through the faith, did not receive the promise, 40God having planned something better for us, so that not apart from us, they should be made perfect.

Quote
This is jest another thread about believers being alive in heaven and the answer is no they are not otherwise the promise of the resurrection is a lie.
There will certainly be a final resurrection, but that's a different event to what has been happening in heaven since the beginning.

You cannot just toss aside a clear statement of scripture just because it doesn't match your dogma Dave

Offline Cariad

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 232
  • Total likes: 10
  • Thanked: 18 times
  • Welcome our New Member
Re: So great a cloud of witnesses.
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2017, 03:32:02 PM »
'Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about
with so great a cloud of witnesses,
let us lay aside every weight,
and the sin which doth so easily beset us,
and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,'

(Heb 12:1)

@francis drake
@davetaff

* The great cloud of witnesses, are those whose lives bore 'witness' to the power of faith: these were no mere 'spectators', but those who endured to the end, very often to the laying down of their own lives .  The examples in Hebrews 11, are given to encourage those who are having to also endure hardship and trial for their faith, to look to the One Who is the Author and Finisher of their faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross.  The greatest witness of all to the power of faith.

* Cloud here is used figuratively of a throng.
* The word witness does not mean a spectator, but one who himself bore witness.
* These are not spectators of our lives today, either, for they have died: and await the day when they will be raised to life eternal.
* Those witnessing God's wondrous grace in the Church which is His Body now, are found in Ephesians 3:8-11:-

'Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given,
that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery,
which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,
who created all things by Jesus Christ:
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places
might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:'


* Principalities and powers in heavenly places: who witness the manifold wisdom of God, in Christ Jesus our Lord.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad






Offline davetaff

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1470
  • Total likes: 107
  • Thanked: 45 times
  • Gender: Male
  • New :God is Love
Re: So great a cloud of witnesses.
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2017, 05:00:05 PM »
Hi Frances
I give you a few verse tell me what they mean if they don't mean what they say.

Joh 11:11  These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Act 13:36  For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Mar 5:39  And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

Luk 8:52  And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

Joh 11:11  These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep

Deu 31:16  And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

2Sa 7:12  And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

1Ki 1:21  Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.

Job 7:21  And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Psa 13:3  Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contemp     


My favourite is

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

   


If we sleep in Jesus how can we be alive in Heaven

Love and Peace
Dave

Online francis drake

Re: So great a cloud of witnesses.
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2017, 09:29:04 PM »
Hi Frances
I give you a few verse tell me what they mean if they don't mean what they say.

Joh 11:11  These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Act 13:36  For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 5:10  Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

Mar 5:39  And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth.

Luk 8:52  And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.

Joh 11:11  These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep

Deu 31:16  And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

2Sa 7:12  And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.

1Ki 1:21  Otherwise it shall come to pass, when my lord the king shall sleep with his fathers, that I and my son Solomon shall be counted offenders.

Job 7:21  And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Psa 13:3  Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Dan 12:2  And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contemp     


My favourite is

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

   


If we sleep in Jesus how can we be alive in Heaven

Love and Peace
Dave
Dave, this is a silly waste of time and space that says nothing of value for your stance.
Sleep is just a metaphor for the body not waking up after death.

It says zilch about what happens to the human spirit one way or another!

Yawn.zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Online francis drake

Re: So great a cloud of witnesses.
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2017, 10:08:08 PM »

* Cloud here is used figuratively of a throng.
That's what I said.
Quote
* The word witness does not mean a spectator, but one who himself bore witness.
You are just splitting hairs Cariad. Witness or spectator effectively mean the same thing in this context, just as Strong's states.-
Definition: a witness; an eye- or ear-witness. As anyone would be in a stadium.
But the following are online dictionary definitions to help clarify.
Witness
1.One who can give a firsthand account of something seen, heard, or experienced: a witness to the accident.
2.One who furnishes evidence.

Spectator (spɛkˈteɪtə)
1.a person viewing anything; onlooker; observer
[C16: from Latin, from spectāre to watch; see spectacle]

As can be seen, it doesn't make a scrap of difference to what I am saying.
Quote
* These are not spectators of our lives today, either,
The context, as well as the Greek words, makes it clear that the patriarchs are witnesses who are watching us today.
Witnesses see what people do or what happens at an event.
Biblehub Strong's concordance lists 35 uses of the word, and every single one refers to people who saw (or witnessed) something.
That is the normal language, and the normal Geek meaning
Quote
for they have died: and await the day when they will be raised to life eternal.
Their bodies have died, and as scripture says repeatedly, have given up the ghost. ie. their spirits are somewhere else other than in the grave.
Quote
* Those witnessing God's wondrous grace in the Church which is His Body now, are found in Ephesians 3:8-11:-

'Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given,
that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery,
which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God,
who created all things by Jesus Christ:
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places
might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:'


* Principalities and powers in heavenly places: who witness the manifold wisdom of God, in Christ Jesus our Lord.
This is about the demonic realm, and there is no mention of the word Witness.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Cariad

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 232
  • Total likes: 10
  • Thanked: 18 times
  • Welcome our New Member
Re: So great a cloud of witnesses.
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2017, 10:31:28 AM »
Hello @francis drake

You appear to be under the the impression that I do not believe that the Spirit leaves the body at death, yet I have repeatedly quoted Ecclesiastes 12:7, which states that very thing.  Of course the breath of life or spirit leaves the body: but where we differ is in regard to what the spirit is .  You appear to believe that it has an existence outside of the body, and has all the functions that the body provided, ie., The ability to see, hear, and so on.  Yet what scriptural basis do you have for that?

I believe the breath of life, or spirit, leaves the body at death and goes back to God Who gave it, awaiting the resurrection,  when mortality puts on immortality, and body and spirit are united to be a living soul once more.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Online francis drake

Re: So great a cloud of witnesses.
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2017, 12:00:23 PM »
Hello @francis drake

You appear to be under the the impression that I do not believe that the Spirit leaves the body at death, yet I have repeatedly quoted Ecclesiastes 12:7, which states that very thing.  Of course the breath of life or spirit leaves the body: but where we differ is in regard to what the spirit is .  You appear to believe that it has an existence outside of the body, and has all the functions that the body provided, ie., The ability to see, hear, and so on.  Yet what scriptural basis do you have for that?

I believe the breath of life, or spirit, leaves the body at death and goes back to God Who gave it, awaiting the resurrection,  when mortality puts on immortality, and body and spirit are united to be a living soul once more.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad
My apologies @Cariad and thanks for clearing that up.
Likewise I ask you, what scriptural basis do you have that the spirit has no life in the interim period between bodily death and resurrection? Ecc12v7 certainly doesn't say that.

Here are two dead men whose spirits were very much alive.
Matt17v2There He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light. 3Suddenly Moses and Elijah appeared before them, talking with Jesus.

Here's another dead man alive in his spirit.
1Sam28v13 ...........And the woman said to Saul, ?I see a divine being coming up out of the earth.? 14He said to her, ?What is his form?? And she said, ?An old man is coming up, and he is wrapped with a robe.? And Saul knew that it was Samuel, and he bowed with his face to the ground and did homage.
      15Then Samuel said to Saul, ?Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?? And Saul answered, ?I am greatly distressed; for the Philistines are waging war against me, and God has departed from me............
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)