Author Topic: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error  (Read 327 times)

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Online francis drake

Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2017, 08:26:49 PM »
Hi Frances
You said
This seems to be a bone of contention on a few threads I can't comment on the rest of yours and Cariad's post because I don't understand English grammar never mind Greek and Hebrew.

back to Lazarus.

Luk 16:20  And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21  And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22  And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23  And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24  And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25  But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26  And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27  Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28  For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29  Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30  And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31  And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.     
 

As I understand it it's a parable which to me is a story to teach us something else it's not a real life account and what makes you think that Lazarus and the rich man went to there respective places strait away there is nothing in the text to indicate this.
and it dose not say Lazarus went to heaven but to Abrahams bosom not exactly the same thing the word gathered to the fathers spring to mind.
As for the rich man he was being tormented by fire the lake of fire comes to mind but this is something that only appears at the end of the ages which would indicate that neither of them went directly to there respective places but it was something that happened much later.
Of course its not a real account, but you can hardly have Jesus telling parables that include deception can you?

Abraham was the father of all Israel, and had been called by God out of paganism. When he died, it was believed that he went to eternal life in the next world. Jesus was using that belief to illustrate the point that all who are of faith also go there.
In the book of Maccabees, it says, " The righteous who die for their faith are received by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in paradise."

In Matt8v11 it says, "Many shall come from the east and the west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven". 
Abraham's bosom is the same place that Abraham was, along with Isaac and Jacob and all the other patriarchs, and as the story shows, it wasn't the grave.

Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Online francis drake

Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2017, 08:30:20 PM »
It is not a question of it, 'not suiting me', f.d., I am happy to discuss the subject of the thread, but derailing it would be unfair to those who have a view to express regarding it.  It is you who introduced other subjects.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad
Everything I have said is directly linked to the OP and no other subject.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Cariad

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Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #10 on: November 23, 2017, 08:58:02 AM »
@John
@francis drake
@davetaff

Thank you for your input regarding Luke 23:43, and the way that grammar and punctuation affect the sense, though we are not in agreement, I thank you for considering the points raised.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2017, 02:17:31 PM »
Hi Frances
You said
Quote
Of course its not a real account, but you can hardly have Jesus telling parables that include deception can you?

Abraham was the father of all Israel, and had been called by God out of paganism. When he died, it was believed that he went to eternal life in the next world. Jesus was using that belief to illustrate the point that all who are of faith also go there.
In the book of Maccabees, it says, " The righteous who die for their faith are received by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in paradise."

In Matt8v11 it says, "Many shall come from the east and the west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven". 
Abraham's bosom is the same place that Abraham was, along with Isaac and Jacob and all the other patriarchs, and as the story shows, it wasn't the grave.
   
Quote


So we can agree a parable is not a real account and we should understand it as such.
As for the Maccabees I don't have them in my Bible and don't consider them the word of God.
Of course Abraham Isaac and Jacob will be in heaven but I don't believe they are living there at the present time they are asleep like the rest who have died.

Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory   


Take note Frances it is at the last trump that the dead shall be raised not before.

Love and Peace
Dave   

Online francis drake

Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2017, 02:56:26 PM »
Hi Frances
You said
Quote
Of course its not a real account, but you can hardly have Jesus telling parables that include deception can you?

Abraham was the father of all Israel, and had been called by God out of paganism. When he died, it was believed that he went to eternal life in the next world. Jesus was using that belief to illustrate the point that all who are of faith also go there.
In the book of Maccabees, it says, " The righteous who die for their faith are received by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in paradise."

In Matt8v11 it says, "Many shall come from the east and the west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven". 
Abraham's bosom is the same place that Abraham was, along with Isaac and Jacob and all the other patriarchs, and as the story shows, it wasn't the grave.
   
Quote


So we can agree a parable is not a real account and we should understand it as such.
As for the Maccabees I don't have them in my Bible and don't consider them the word of God.

Jesus also quoted from other scriptures that we do not have in the canon. Does that prove he was wrong or didn't know what he was saying.
He also quoted stuff that was happening around him, that didn't make it less real either.
The Jews believed that when they die they went to where the patriarchs were, Jesus confirmed that by his parable using their belief as a base for the story.

Quote

Of course Abraham Isaac and Jacob will be in heaven but I don't believe they are living there at the present time they are asleep like the rest who have died.

Co 15:51  Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory   


Take note Frances it is at the last trump that the dead shall be raised not before.

That's not true Dave.
Its just the body that goes into the grave, not the spirit. You completely ignore the many references in scripture to giving up the spirit or soul as it departs the body, just as Jesus did.
You also ignore the many other resurrections that are accounted in scripture.
Matt27v50And Jesus, having cried again in a loud voice, yielded up His spirit. 51And behold, the veil of the temple was torn into two from top to bottom. And the earth was shaken, and the rocks were split. 52And the tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints having fallen asleep arose. 53And having gone forth out of the tombs after His resurrection, they entered into the holy city and appeared to many.
There have been many resurrections


https://www.1faith.co.uk/?topic=9954.0
Go read my thread. So great a cloud of witnesses" Dave. It proves clearly that you are wrong.
https://www.1faith.co.uk/?topic=9954.0
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

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Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #13 on: November 24, 2017, 01:40:01 PM »
Hi Frances
I have not ignored Gods life giving spirit giving life to all living creatures from the beginning of creation it is this spirit that returns to God on death.
This spirit is in all living creatures its this spirit that returns to God.

You mention those resurrected in the bible I'm not sure why all of them died at a later date non of them lived for ever those in the NT were raised up to prove that Jesus was the resurrection and the life.
Non of these received a resurrection body which is something entirely different it cannot die.

Love and Peace
Dave

Online francis drake

Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #14 on: November 24, 2017, 06:45:44 PM »
Hi Frances
I have not ignored Gods life giving spirit giving life to all living creatures from the beginning of creation it is this spirit that returns to God on death.
This spirit is in all living creatures its this spirit that returns to God.

You mention those resurrected in the bible I'm not sure why all of them died at a later date non of them lived for ever those in the NT were raised up to prove that Jesus was the resurrection and the life.
Non of these received a resurrection body which is something entirely different it cannot die.
I only mentioned those who were resurrected at the crucifixion because you stated that the resurrection didn't happen till the last trump. Obviously they lived and then died a second time.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

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Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2017, 12:42:24 PM »
Hi Frances
So the resurrections where not the resurrection to eternal life jest signs and wonders.

Getting back to the thread it has occurred to me that the words our Lord spoke to the thief were exactly that spoken words  no comers no full stops no verse numbers no crammer at all.

So how do we know what our Lord meant when he spoke the words to the thief we don't all we can do is compare it with the rest of scripture which seams to me to indicate that Paradise is a future event.

Love and Peace
Dave