Author Topic: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error  (Read 328 times)

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Online francis drake

Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #32 on: December 01, 2017, 11:14:38 PM »
@francis drake,

'In my Father's house are many mansions:
if it were not so, I would have told you.
I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I will come again,
and receive you unto myself;
that where I am, there ye may be also.'

(Joh 14:2-3) 

Hello f.d.,

In the verse above, the Lord tells His disciples that He was going to prepare a place for them, and that He would 'COME AGAIN' to receive them unto Himself, 'that where I am, there ye may be also', whereas what you are effectively saying, is, 'Oh no, Lord, that won't be necessary, for we are coming to you.'

The Lord has to come again to receive His disciples to himself, and only then will they be able to be where He is.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Many scriptures spoken do not directly address those present, but future generations.
When Jesus comes a second time, there will be millions of believers who Jesus will call to himself. Those who died long ago will already be with him.


Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Online francis drake

Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #33 on: December 01, 2017, 11:27:22 PM »
Hello there,

In Luke 16:15-31 the Lord is addressing the Pharisees directly, He says,

'And He said unto them, '
"Ye are they which justify yourselves before men;
but God knoweth your hearts:
for that which is highly esteemed among men
is abomination in the sight of God.
The law and the prophets were until John:
since that time the kingdom of God is preached,
and every man presseth into it.
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, that one tittle of the law to fail.'


* Now our Lord looks at what the Pharisees taught: starting with the law applying to divorce (v.18), and concerning the dead (v.19-23).  They made void the law as to divorce; and made void the prophets  (vv. 16,17).  They also made void the rest of Scripture as to the state of the dead (v.19-23).

* Concerning the law of divorce, The Rabbis made void the law and the prophets by their traditions, evading Deut 22:22

'If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die,
both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.'

(Deu 22:22)

* They also used the words of Deut. 24:1 with license:-

'When a man hath taken a wife, and married her,
and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes,
because he hath found some uncleanness in her:
then let him write her a bill of divorcement,
and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.'

(Deu 24:1)

* Then the words of verse 19, commences the second part of our Lord's address to the Pharisees, against their tradition making void God's Word regarding the state of the dead, which may be seen in (Psa.6:5; 30:9; 31:17; 88:11; 115:17; 146:4; Eccl.9:6,10; 12:7)

'For in death there is no remembrance of thee:
in the grave who shall give thee thanks?'

(Psa 6:5) 

'What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit?
Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?'

(Psa 30:9) 

'Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee:
let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.'

(Psa 31:17)

'Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave?
or thy faithfulness in destruction?'

(Psa 88:11) 

'The dead praise not the LORD,
neither any that go down into silence.'

(Psa 115:17) 

'His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth;
in that very day his thoughts perish.'

(Psa 146:4) 

'For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,
neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished;
neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.'

(Ecc 9:5-6)

'Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might;
for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom,
in the grave, whither thou goest.'

(Ecc 9:10) 

'Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.'

(Ecc 12:7) 
 
* The story that follows, in verses 19-31 illustrate the way in which the Pharisees teaching negated all that the Scriptures say concerning the state of the dead, and perpetuated Satan's lie, 'Ye shall not surely die.' (Gen.3:4)

* May their witness speak.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad
I really struggled to understand this convoluted post Cariad, but however you frame your argument, you cannot just dismiss what Jesus said as a Pharisaical lie.
If Jesus used false traditions as a foundation of teaching, then we really are on shaky ground understanding anything he said.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

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Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2017, 02:48:54 PM »
Hi Frances
I think you have bean overwhelmed with scripture showing the Dead have no conciseness that they sleep  and yet it seams you choose to ignore them completely and don't even give an alternative explanation for them.
You keep coming back to the parable of Abraham and Lazarus which I think has nothing to do with what happens when we die It was only Our Lord making the point that they had everything they needed was in the OT to be taken to Abrahams Bosom, The OT being a mine of information about who Jesus was but the refused to believe it.
In my humble opinion the amount of scriptural evidence for what happens after death is overwhelming I will again give you a few verses and ask you why I should not believe them are they false scriptures.

1Co 15:18  Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1Co 15:6  After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep

2Pe 3:4  And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
   


Love and Peace
Dave 

Online francis drake

Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2017, 05:46:53 PM »
Hi Frances
I think you have bean overwhelmed with scripture showing the Dead have no conciseness that they sleep  and yet it seams you choose to ignore them completely and don't even give an alternative explanation for them.
You keep coming back to the parable of Abraham and Lazarus which I think has nothing to do with what happens when we die It was only Our Lord making the point that they had everything they needed was in the OT to be taken to Abrahams Bosom, The OT being a mine of information about who Jesus was but the refused to believe it.
In my humble opinion the amount of scriptural evidence for what happens after death is overwhelming I will again give you a few verses and ask you why I should not believe them are they false scriptures.

1Co 15:18  Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1Co 15:6  After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep

2Pe 3:4  And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
   


Love and Peace
Dave
No matter how many scriptures you post that include the phrase "fallen asleep", it will always remain meaningless until you prove that it is anything more than a euphemism for bodily death.

Quote
Here's what an online dictionary says about EUPHEMISM-

1. the substitution of a mild, indirect, or vague expression for one thought to be offensive, harsh, or blunt.

2. the expression so substituted: ?To pass away? is a euphemism for ?to die.?.
I hope the above makes it clearer Dave.
I am sure you will agree that the bodies of these people were dead and rotting in the grave, therefore you must also accept that they could not possibly be asleep in the way you or I slept last night. My body woke up, theirs slept on till the worms ate them.
Your verses say nothing about when they are resurrected do they Dave? They no more aid you than they aid me.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Online francis drake

Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2017, 07:08:04 PM »
To be considered alongside this discussion, are the countless testimonies of people who have had Third Heaven experiences similar to the prophets and patriarchs, or have had near death experiences (NDEs) during life threatening physical trauma.

I posted this, and then about an hour later deleted the content, so as not to derail @Cariad's thread.

It is now a new thread https://www.1faith.co.uk/?topic=9964.new#new

https://www.1faith.co.uk/?topic=9964.new#new
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Cariad

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Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2017, 09:27:23 AM »
The subject of this thread was derailed soon after it began as far as I am concerned, so the introduction of yet another train of thought would have made no difference.

  ::)






Offline davetaff

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Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2017, 01:34:25 PM »
No matter how many scriptures you post that include the phrase "fallen asleep", it will always remain meaningless until you prove that it is anything more than a euphemism for bodily death.
I hope the above makes it clearer Dave.
I am sure you will agree that the bodies of these people were dead and rotting in the grave, therefore you must also accept that they could not possibly be asleep in the way you or I slept last night. My body woke up, theirs slept on till the worms ate them.
Your verses say nothing about when they are resurrected do they Dave? They no more aid you than they aid me.

Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply quite inadequate of course to maintain that every time the word sleep is used in scripture its a euphemism that's stretching things a bit Frances.

You set great store on the fact that people have gone to heaven or had visions and out of body experiences and I grant all this has happens but all these people have returned to this world and then they die like everyone else the question is what happens then.

Having dreams and visions of heaven dose not prove that we have a conscious life in heaven when we die.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Cariad

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Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2017, 02:38:22 PM »

'For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so
in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at His coming
.

(1Cor. 15:16-23) 

There is no life apart from resurrection.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad