Author Topic: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error  (Read 326 times)

Description:

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cariad

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 232
  • Total likes: 10
  • Thanked: 18 times
  • Welcome our New Member
Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2017, 05:07:29 PM »
Of course its not a real account, but you can hardly have Jesus telling parables that include deception can you?

Abraham was the father of all Israel, and had been called by God out of paganism. When he died, it was believed that he went to eternal life in the next world. Jesus was using that belief to illustrate the point that all who are of faith also go there.
In the book of Maccabees, it says, " The righteous who die for their faith are received by Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in paradise."[/i

@francis drake

With respect, this is your interpretation of this f.d., we are not told that Jesus was using that belief to illustrate that point.

Quote
In Matt8v11 it says, "Many shall come from the east and the west and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven". 
Abraham's bosom is the same place that Abraham was, along with Isaac and Jacob and all the other patriarchs, and as the story shows, it wasn't the grave.
;

The Kingdom which is 'of heaven' has not yet come, f.d., otherwise, why would our Lord instruct His disciples to pray, 'Thy kingdom come' (Luke 11:2); and Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still awaiting the resurrection from the dead.

'For since by man came death,
by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
But every man in his own order:
Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.

(1Cor. 15:21-23)
 
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline Cariad

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 232
  • Total likes: 10
  • Thanked: 18 times
  • Welcome our New Member
Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2017, 05:55:37 PM »
Paradise is part of the Kingdom of Heaven.
The preaching of John the Baptist, Jesus himself, and the Apostles was "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is near unto you."

This repeated statement meant that the Kingdom of Heaven was and is near, in the here and now, not some future event thousands of years in the future. Heaven is effectively a parallel universe.
The fact that people could not see the kingdom was because they were blinded by sin and unbelief, which is why the call to repent.

Again the nearness of that kingdom is demonstrated by Jesus, Matt12v28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

This is the kingdom of heaven that is "near unto you"breaking through on earth.

We also see the same kingdom breaking through in the OT with David, Baal Perez meaning "Lord of the breakthrough".

1Chron14v8When the Philistines heard that David had been anointed king over all Israel, they went up in full force to search for him, but David heard about it and went out to meet them. 9Now the Philistines had come and raided the Valley of Rephaim; 10so David inquired of God: ?Shall I go and attack the Philistines? Will you deliver them into my hands??
The Lord answered him, ?Go, I will deliver them into your hands.?
11So David and his men went up to Baal Perazim, and there he defeated them. He said, ?As waters break out, God has broken out against my enemies by my hand.? So that place was called Baal Perazim. 12The Philistines had abandoned their gods there, and David gave orders to burn them in the fire.


Immediately after battle that we see Baal Perez, "the Lord of the breakthrough" breaking through again.-
13Once more the Philistines raided the valley; 14so David inquired of God again, and God answered him, ?Do not go directly after them, but circle around them and attack them in front of the poplar trees. 15As soon as you hear the sound of marching in the tops of the poplar trees, move out to battle, because that will mean God has gone out in front of you to strike the Philistine army.? 16So David did as God commanded him, and they struck down the Philistine army, all the way from Gibeon to Gezer.


The kingdom of heaven has always been near to us, its only false theology that postpones it till the end of the age, and that's why people think the message to the thief must be postponed till then.
@francis drake

'He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,
which is in the midst of the paradise of God.'

(Rev 2:7)

'And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain,
and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem,
descending out of heaven from God ... ...,'

(Rev 21:10)

'And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it:
and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.'

(Rev 21:24)

'And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal,
proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life,
which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month:
and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.'

(Rev 22:1-2)

* These verses refer to the New Jerusalem which descends out of heaven to the earth, it is characterised by the presence within it of the tree of life.  It is called, 'The Paradise of God'.

* This is paradise, and it will be upon the new earth in the day of God, following the Lord's day.  This is paradise restored.  The garden of Eden was paradise for in it was the tree of life.  It was lost to man, but, praise God! It will once more be accessible in that day.

* This is God's Kingdom come

* It was 'near' in the days of John the Baptist, because the King, was there, He was in their midst, and the Kingdom had the potential to 'come', had Israel acknowledged Christ as their Messiah and come to repentance, but they did not.  All through the Acts period, the epistles written during that time record the expectancy which all believers had, for that Kingdom to 'come', with the return of the King.  However, The Kingdom has been in abeyance ever since, because of Israel's unbelief and awaits the events recorded in the book of Revelation, and the revelation of Christ for it's fulfilment.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Online francis drake

Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2017, 07:00:52 PM »

@francis drake

With respect, this is your interpretation of this f.d., we are not told that Jesus was using that belief to illustrate that point.
No Cariad, the plain surface text of the story supports what I said.

Other verses in John 5 also support that theme.-

27And he said, ?Then I implore you, father, that you would send him (Lazarus) to my father?s house
28for I have five brothers?so that he might warn them, that they also might not come to this place of torment.?
29But Abraham says, ?They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.?
30And he said, ?No, father Abraham, but if one from the dead should go to them, they will repent.?
31But he said to him, ?If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, not even will they be persuaded if one should rise out from the dead.?
?

If all mankind remains in "soul sleep" until a general and complete resurrection when Jesus comes, then the rich man's unbelieving brothers would be together with him in the same torment, having been raised from their "soul sleep" and cast into Hades at the exact same time as he was raised from his "soul sleep"!

Abraham's negative response to the rich man was based solely on the fact that his brothers would not listen even if Lazarus came back from the grave.
This refutes soul sleep and proves that his brothers were still alive and kicking on planet earth, whilst he was in Hades!
Quote

The Kingdom which is 'of heaven' has not yet come, f.d., otherwise, why would our Lord instruct His disciples to pray, 'Thy kingdom come' (Luke 11:2); and Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are still awaiting the resurrection from the dead.
Obviously so.
But that Kingdom has always existed in the heavenly realm. That's why they were instructed to pray, "Thy kingdom come on earth.............. as it is in heaven"
In due time, heaven will join earth.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Online francis drake

Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2017, 07:59:18 PM »
@francis drake

'He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches;
To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life,
which is in the midst of the paradise of God.'

(Rev 2:7)

'And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain,
and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem,
descending out of heaven from God ... ...,'

(Rev 21:10)

'And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it:
and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.'

(Rev 21:24)

'And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal,
proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life,
which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month:
and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.'

(Rev 22:1-2)

* These verses refer to the New Jerusalem which descends out of heaven to the earth, it is characterised by the presence within it of the tree of life.  It is called, 'The Paradise of God'.

* This is paradise, and it will be upon the new earth in the day of God, following the Lord's day.  This is paradise restored.  The garden of Eden was paradise for in it was the tree of life.  It was lost to man, but, praise God! It will once more be accessible in that day.

* This is God's Kingdom come

* It was 'near' in the days of John the Baptist, because the King, was there, He was in their midst, and the Kingdom had the potential to 'come', had Israel acknowledged Christ as their Messiah and come to repentance, but they did not.  All through the Acts period, the epistles written during that time record the expectancy which all believers had, for that Kingdom to 'come', with the return of the King.  However, The Kingdom has been in abeyance ever since, because of Israel's unbelief and awaits the events recorded in the book of Revelation, and the revelation of Christ for it's fulfilment.
Of course the Kingdom was near because Christ was in the midst. But the kingdom, and the Tree of Life has always been available to those who sought it with humility.

Proverbs3v
13Happy is the man that finds wisdom, and the man that gets understanding.
14For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.
15She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.
16Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.
17Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.
18She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retains her.
19The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.
20By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew.
21My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion:
.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Cariad

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 232
  • Total likes: 10
  • Thanked: 18 times
  • Welcome our New Member
Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2017, 08:55:08 PM »
Of course the Kingdom was near because Christ was in the midst. But the kingdom, and the Tree of Life has always been available to those who sought it with humility.

Proverbs3v
13Happy is the man that finds wisdom, and the man that gets understanding.
14For the merchandise of it is better than the merchandise of silver, and the gain thereof than fine gold.
15She is more precious than rubies: and all the things thou canst desire are not to be compared unto her.
16Length of days is in her right hand; and in her left hand riches and honour.
17Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace.
18She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retains her.
19The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.
20By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew.
21My son, let not them depart from thine eyes: keep sound wisdom and discretion:
.
@francis drake

Hello again f.d.,

The beautiful references you have given from Proverbs 3:18, refer to 'wisdom', as you will have realised. ' The tree of life', or the tree supporting and continuing the life which had been imparted. (Gen.2:9; 3:22,24; Prov.3:18; 11:30; 13:12; 15:4; Rev.2:7; 22:2,14)

'The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life;
and he that winneth souls is wise.'

(Pro 11:30)

'Hope deferred maketh the heart sick:
but when the desire cometh,
it is a tree of life.'

(Pro 13:12) 

'A wholesome tongue is a tree of life:
but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit.'

(Pro 15:4)

* In referring to 'the tree of life' and 'the kingdom', here,as something that can be 'found', you are referring to them in a spiritual sense, whereas I have been speaking of them literally.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad


Offline Cariad

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 232
  • Total likes: 10
  • Thanked: 18 times
  • Welcome our New Member
Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2017, 09:30:01 PM »
No Cariad, the plain surface text of the story supports what I said.

Other verses in John 5 also support that theme.-

27And he said, ?Then I implore you, father, that you would send him (Lazarus) to my father's house
28for I have five brothers?so that he might warn them, that they also might not come to this place of torment.?
29But Abraham says, ?They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.?
30And he said, ?No, father Abraham, but if one from the dead should go to them, they will repent.?
31But he said to him, ?If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, not even will they be persuaded if one should rise out from the dead.?
?

If all mankind remains in "soul sleep" until a general and complete resurrection when Jesus comes, then the rich man's unbelieving brothers would be together with him in the same torment, having been raised from their "soul sleep" and cast into Hades at the exact same time as he was raised from his "soul sleep"!

Abraham's negative response to the rich man was based solely on the fact that his brothers would not listen even if Lazarus came back from the grave.
This refutes soul sleep and proves that his brothers were still alive and kicking on planet earth, whilst he was in Hades!Obviously so.
But that Kingdom has always existed in the heavenly realm. That's why they were instructed to pray, "Thy kingdom come on earth.............. as it is in heaven"
In due time, heaven will join earth.
@francis drake,

'In my Father's house are many mansions:
if it were not so, I would have told you.
I go to prepare a place for you.
And if I go and prepare a place for you,
I will come again,
and receive you unto myself;
that where I am, there ye may be also.'

(Joh 14:2-3) 

Hello f.d.,

In the verse above, the Lord tells His disciples that He was going to prepare a place for them, and that He would 'COME AGAIN' to receive them unto Himself, 'that where I am, there ye may be also', whereas what you are effectively saying, is, 'Oh no, Lord, that won't be necessary, for we are coming to you.'

The Lord has to come again to receive His disciples to himself, and only then will they be able to be where He is.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad








Offline Cariad

  • Awarded Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 232
  • Total likes: 10
  • Thanked: 18 times
  • Welcome our New Member
Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2017, 10:55:30 PM »
Hello there,

In Luke 16:15-31 the Lord is addressing the Pharisees directly, He says,

'And He said unto them, '
"Ye are they which justify yourselves before men;
but God knoweth your hearts:
for that which is highly esteemed among men
is abomination in the sight of God.
The law and the prophets were until John:
since that time the kingdom of God is preached,
and every man presseth into it.
And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, that one tittle of the law to fail.'


* Now our Lord looks at what the Pharisees taught: starting with the law applying to divorce (v.18), and concerning the dead (v.19-23).  They made void the law as to divorce; and made void the prophets  (vv. 16,17).  They also made void the rest of Scripture as to the state of the dead (v.19-23).

* Concerning the law of divorce, The Rabbis made void the law and the prophets by their traditions, evading Deut 22:22

'If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die,
both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.'

(Deu 22:22)

* They also used the words of Deut. 24:1 with license:-

'When a man hath taken a wife, and married her,
and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes,
because he hath found some uncleanness in her:
then let him write her a bill of divorcement,
and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.'

(Deu 24:1)

* Then the words of verse 19, commences the second part of our Lord's address to the Pharisees, against their tradition making void God's Word regarding the state of the dead, which may be seen in (Psa.6:5; 30:9; 31:17; 88:11; 115:17; 146:4; Eccl.9:6,10; 12:7)

'For in death there is no remembrance of thee:
in the grave who shall give thee thanks?'

(Psa 6:5) 

'What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit?
Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?'

(Psa 30:9) 

'Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee:
let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.'

(Psa 31:17)

'Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave?
or thy faithfulness in destruction?'

(Psa 88:11) 

'The dead praise not the LORD,
neither any that go down into silence.'

(Psa 115:17) 

'His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth;
in that very day his thoughts perish.'

(Psa 146:4) 

'For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing,
neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished;
neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.'

(Ecc 9:5-6)

'Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might;
for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom,
in the grave, whither thou goest.'

(Ecc 9:10) 

'Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.'

(Ecc 12:7) 
 
* The story that follows, in verses 19-31 illustrate the way in which the Pharisees teaching negated all that the Scriptures say concerning the state of the dead, and perpetuated Satan's lie, 'Ye shall not surely die.' (Gen.3:4)

* May their witness speak.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Online francis drake

Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #31 on: December 01, 2017, 11:11:55 PM »
@francis drake

* In referring to 'the tree of life' and 'the kingdom', here,as something that can be 'found', you are referring to them in a spiritual sense, whereas I have been speaking of them literally.

I confess to being stumped by that Cariad?

The Kingdom of Heaven, God himself, the Holy City, the angels, the Tree of Life are all both spiritual and literal.

You will have to enlighten me on the point you are making before I can give an answer.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)