Author Topic: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error  (Read 324 times)

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Online francis drake

Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2017, 09:32:18 AM »
Hi Frances
So the resurrections where not the resurrection to eternal life jest signs and wonders.

Getting back to the thread it has occurred to me that the words our Lord spoke to the thief were exactly that spoken words  no comers no full stops no verse numbers no crammer at all.

So how do we know what our Lord meant when he spoke the words to the thief we don't all we can do is compare it with the rest of scripture which seams to me to indicate that Paradise is a future event.

Love and Peace
Dave
Paradise is part of the Kingdom of Heaven.
The preaching of John the Baptist, Jesus himself, and the Apostles was "Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is near unto you."

This repeated statement meant that the Kingdom of Heaven was and is near, in the here and now, not some future event thousands of years in the future. Heaven is effectively a parallel universe.

The fact that people could not see the kingdom was because they were blinded by sin and unbelief, which is why the call to repent.

Again the nearness of that kingdom is demonstrated by Jesus, Matt12v28But if I drive out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

This is the kingdom of heaven that is "near unto you"breaking through on earth.

We also see the same kingdom breaking through in the OT with David, Baal Perez meaning "Lord of the breakthrough".

1Chron14v8When the Philistines heard that David had been anointed king over all Israel, they went up in full force to search for him, but David heard about it and went out to meet them. 9Now the Philistines had come and raided the Valley of Rephaim; 10so David inquired of God: ?Shall I go and attack the Philistines? Will you deliver them into my hands??
The Lord answered him, ?Go, I will deliver them into your hands.?
11So David and his men went up to Baal Perazim, and there he defeated them. He said, ?As waters break out, God has broken out against my enemies by my hand.? So that place was called Baal Perazim. 12The Philistines had abandoned their gods there, and David gave orders to burn them in the fire.


Immediately after battle that we see Baal Perez, "the Lord of the breakthrough" breaking through again.-
13Once more the Philistines raided the valley; 14so David inquired of God again, and God answered him, ?Do not go directly after them, but circle around them and attack them in front of the poplar trees. 15As soon as you hear the sound of marching in the tops of the poplar trees, move out to battle, because that will mean God has gone out in front of you to strike the Philistine army.? 16So David did as God commanded him, and they struck down the Philistine army, all the way from Gibeon to Gezer.


The kingdom of heaven has always been near to us, its only false theology that postpones it till the end of the age, and that's why people think the message to the thief must be postponed till then.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

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Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2017, 02:18:24 PM »
Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply interesting but I don't see how it addresses my previous post.
Yes the kingdom of heaven is near its all around us it is where God is and God is everywhere  then we have paradise God created this earth to be a paradise for mankind to take care of and of course this will happen.

when it dose happen then heaven and paradise will be one because God will be in us and we in him God will be all in all in the new heaven and earth and God purpose for creation will be realised.

So when do we enter the Kingdom I believe it is when we give our selves to Christ in baptism when we are baptised with the spirit and with fire although we remain in this world for a short time we are in Christ who is in Heaven when we die we remain in Him but we sleep in him as the scriptures make plain.

1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.   


As we see from these texts the Lord comes down from heaven then those who are dead in Chris ( who Sleep ) will be raised up

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline John

Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2017, 08:47:38 PM »
Dave,
             Just what do you mean by:-
"heaven and paradise will be one because God will be in us and we in him God will be all in all in the new heaven and earth and God purpose for creation will be realised."

It reads as if you think we will be become part of God, assimilated by God.

If that is what you do mean. It is not what the bible teaches.

In Heaven we will have new bodies like the risen Jesus's body and we will still be individuals. The indewlling of the Holy Spirit is not a form of group mind, or mind control.

Offline davetaff

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Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #19 on: November 30, 2017, 11:50:43 AM »
Dave,
             Just what do you mean by:-
"heaven and paradise will be one because God will be in us and we in him God will be all in all in the new heaven and earth and God purpose for creation will be realised."

It reads as if you think we will be become part of God, assimilated by God.

If that is what you do mean. It is not what the bible teaches.

In Heaven we will have new bodies like the risen Jesus's body and we will still be individuals. The indewlling of the Holy Spirit is not a form of group mind, or mind control.

Hi John
What do you think the following verse means then.

.28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all       

I think what it means is as those who are saved are the body of Christ are in Christ he is the head which controls the body those who are the body obey the head the whole thing works through Love.

When Christ hands everything back to the Father it will be the same Christ is the exact image of the Father hence the saying all in all.

Love and peace
Dave

Offline John

Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #20 on: November 30, 2017, 02:54:02 PM »
Dave,
          If you look at 1Cor 15 it talks about Jesus's resurection, his subduing all powers and authorities, except for God the Father and that Jesus hands everything over to God the Father so that he might be All in All.
It is giving God the Father supreme power, authority, rule, might etc etc etc etc.

Offline davetaff

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Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #21 on: November 30, 2017, 05:06:51 PM »
Dave,
          If you look at 1Cor 15 it talks about Jesus's resurection, his subduing all powers and authorities, except for God the Father and that Jesus hands everything over to God the Father so that he might be All in All.
It is giving God the Father supreme power, authority, rule, might etc etc etc etc.

Hi John
I agree with you God the father is the supreme power above all things the  other thing to remember is Jesus Christ is the express image of his person

Heb 1:3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
 


I would say he is the image of the father when he is united with his bride and they become one as did the first Adam and Eve Christ being the second Adam follows the same pattern of creation.
when he has put all things under his feet he hands everything over to the father so as Christ is the image of the father and is made up as Christ the head and the church the body united in one which Christ gives to the father the father is the supreme head of everything and all those who belonged to Christ now belong to the father and is a part of him as was the church a part of Christ.

So what dose the words all in all mean is it all of us are in God and God is in all of us via the holy spirit which binds all things together in Love.

1Jn 4:16  And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him   

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline John

Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2017, 03:22:31 PM »
Dave,
          "all of us are in God and God is in all of us via the holy spirit which binds all things together in Love."
Always read the whole passsage, by just reading a verse you risk missunderstanding what the verse means.

It says:-
1John 4:7-18 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
13 This is how we know that we live in him and he in us: He has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15 If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in them and they in God. 16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them.
17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

It is about Love, Love of an d for God and as God is Spirit and as he is everywhere in heaven he will live in us.

Note that does not mean we will be part of him anymore than being part of a church or a football team means that you or I are the church or football team.

Offline Cariad

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