Author Topic: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error  (Read 325 times)

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Offline Cariad

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Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« on: November 21, 2017, 01:59:00 PM »
'And Jesus said unto him
Verily I say unto thee today
shalt thou be with me in paradise'

(Luke 23:43) 

Hello there,

I have left out the punctuation in the quoting of Luke 23:43, above, because the translators of the KJV made an error in regard to it, which has led to misunderstanding. The comma is in the wrong place.  The way it appears in the KJV violates the rules of Greek grammar.  The rules are: When 'today' follows a verb, it is connected to that verb, so 'today' is joined to 'say', 'I say unto thee today'. Other examples of this are found in Mat. 21:28 and Luk. 22:34.

Also, when "today" is separated from the verb by "hoti" (i.e., 'that', 'is' or 'because'), it is attached to the next clause. Examples are Luk. 19:9, 4:21 and Mar. 14:30. However, the word "hoti" does not appear in Luk. 23:43.  Therefore, the phrase should read as follows: "Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise".

In Christ Jesus
Cariad



Offline John

Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2017, 07:29:10 AM »
A quick sample of translations/versins from biblegateway give:-

Luke 23:43Disciples? Literal New Testament (DLNT)
43 And He said to him, ?Truly I say to you, you will be with Me today in paradise?.
Luke 23:43English Standard Version (ESV)
43 And he said to him, ?Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.?
Luke 23:43J.B. Phillips New Testament (PHILLIPS)
43 And Jesus answered, ?I tell you truly, this day you will be with me in paradise.?
Luke 23:43New English Translation (NET Bible)
43 And Jesus said to him, ?I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.?
Luke 23:43Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
43 and Jesus said to him, `Verily I say to thee, To-day with me thou shalt be in the paradise.'Luke 23:43Amplified Bible (AMP)
43 Jesus said to him, ?I assure you and most solemnly say to you, today you will be with Me in [a]Paradise.?


The vote is that it does mean 'Today you will be with me'

Online francis drake

Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2017, 10:11:20 AM »
'And Jesus said unto him
Verily I say unto thee today
shalt thou be with me in paradise'

(Luke 23:43) 

Hello there,

I have left out the punctuation in the quoting of Luke 23:43, above, because the translators of the KJV made an error in regard to it, which has led to misunderstanding. The comma is in the wrong place.  The way it appears in the KJV violates the rules of Greek grammar.  The rules are: When 'today' follows a verb, it is connected to that verb, so 'today' is joined to 'say', 'I say unto thee today'. Other examples of this are found in Mat. 21:28 and Luk. 22:34.

Also, when "today" is separated from the verb by "hoti" (i.e., 'that', 'is' or 'because'), it is attached to the next clause. Examples are Luk. 19:9, 4:21 and Mar. 14:30. However, the word "hoti" does not appear in Luk. 23:43.  Therefore, the phrase should read as follows: "Verily I say unto thee today, thou shalt be with me in paradise".
I don't accept this explanation one bit.
Nobody can argue from a so called wrong position of a comma, because it never existed in the first place, but was added centuries later.
So lets ignore the comma completely and simply look at the words.

The argument one way or another hinges on the word "today".

In that verse, "today" is immediately preceded by "Truly I say to you", spoken in the present tense. That present tense makes the addition of the word "today" completely redundant, and pushes it forward to the next half of the sentence. where it makes very clear sense.

Obviously redundant words do sometimes get slotted into sentences, so it's quite interesting to see how Jesus uses that word elsewhere.
A search in the gospels shows that Jesus very rarely used the word "today", and certainly never added it in a redundant fashion to anything he spoke. When he used it, it meant what it said in direct relation to the remaining words. ie. "...today, tomorrow and the day after....."

Being nailed to the cross, every single words he spoke would be a very painful challenge. Doubling up on words is highly unlikely, therefore he said what he meant and meant what he said.
"Today shalt thou be with me in paradise'!"
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Cariad

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Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2017, 10:49:16 AM »
I don't accept this explanation one bit.
Nobody can argue from a so called wrong position of a comma, because it never existed in the first place, but was added centuries later.
So lets ignore the comma completely and simply look at the words.

The argument one way or another hinges on the word "today".

In that verse, "today" is immediately preceded by "Truly I say to you", spoken in the present tense. That present tense makes the addition of the word "today" completely redundant, and pushes it forward to the next half of the sentence. where it makes very clear sense.

Obviously redundant words do sometimes get slotted into sentences, so it's quite interesting to see how Jesus uses that word elsewhere.
A search in the gospels shows that Jesus very rarely used the word "today", and certainly never added it in a redundant fashion to anything he spoke. When he used it, it meant what it said in direct relation to the remaining words. ie. "...today, tomorrow and the day after....."

Being nailed to the cross, every single words he spoke would be a very painful challenge. Doubling up on words is highly unlikely, therefore he said what he meant and meant what he said.

"Today shalt thou be with me in paradise"

Hello @francis drake,

What I said was in relation to the laws of grammar as well as the punctuation, which as I said was the addition of the translators.  If you refuse to take notice of these laws, but prefer to have your own understanding that is entirely up to you.

However, as the Lord Himself was in the grave awaiting resurrection for three days, 'today' could not have referred to the day on which He spoke to the thief. This is confirmed by our Lord's words to Mary Magdalene in which He tells her that He had not yet ascended to the Father (John 20:17). How do you explain that?

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Online francis drake

Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2017, 02:35:26 PM »
Hello @francis drake,

What I said was in relation to the laws of grammar as well as the punctuation, which as I said was the addition of the translators.  If you refuse to take notice of these laws, but prefer to have your own understanding that is entirely up to you.
I am not ignoring your rules, but they are not as rigid as you claim.
A case in point being Acts4v9
If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
The KJV above follows the Greek sequence, with the adverb "today" preceding the verb "being examined",

You are also ignoring the clear context.
You also ignore the story of the rich man and Lazarus who immediately went in spirit to the next life, leaving their bodies to rot in the grave.
Quote
However, as the Lord Himself was in the grave awaiting resurrection for three days, 'today' could not have referred to the day on which He spoke to the thief. This is confirmed by our Lord's words to Mary Magdalene in which He tells her that He had not yet ascended to the Father (John 20:17). How do you explain that?
Because you reject the separation of the spirit from the body, you are arguing against plainly stated scripture.-
Lk23v46And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

It was Jesus's lifeless body that went into the grave, not his spirit, which departed his body until the resurrection.
That he had not ascended to the Father simply means that he had not gone bodily to his Father in heaven, as we see in the Book of Acts. It speaks nothing whatsoever against the three days his empty body alone was in the grave.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

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Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2017, 05:33:51 PM »
Hi Frances
You said
Quote
You also ignore the story of the rich man and Lazarus who immediately went in spirit to the next life, leaving their bodies to rot in the grave. 

This seems to be a bone of contention on a few threads I can't comment on the rest of yours and Cariad's post because I don't understand English grammar never mind Greek and Hebrew.

back to Lazarus.

Luk 16:20  And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21  And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22  And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23  And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24  And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25  But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26  And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27  Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28  For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29  Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30  And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31  And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.     
 

As I understand it it's a parable which to me is a story to teach us something else it's not a real life account and what makes you think that Lazarus and the rich man went to there respective places strait away there is nothing in the text to indicate this.
and it dose not say Lazarus went to heaven but to Abrahams bosom not exactly the same thing the word gathered to the fathers spring to mind.
As for the rich man he was being tormented by fire the lake of fire comes to mind but this is something that only appears at the end of the ages which would indicate that neither of them went directly to there respective places but it was something that happened much later.

Love and Peace
Dave 

Offline Cariad

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Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2017, 06:15:51 PM »
Quote
@francis drake:
I am not ignoring your rules, but they are not as rigid as you claim.
A case in point being Acts4v9
If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;
The KJV above follows the Greek sequence, with the adverb "today" preceding the verb "being examined",

Hello f.d.,

In the verse you quoted, the words, 'this day' did not follow the verb, but preceded it.

Quote
The rules are: When 'today' follows a verb, it is connected to that verb, so 'today' is joined to 'say', 'I say unto thee today'.

Examples:-

'But what think ye?
A certain man had two sons;
and he came to the first, and said,
"Son, go work - today in my vineyard.'

(Mat 21:28)
 

'And He said,
"I tell thee, Peter,
the cock shall not crow - this day,
before that thou shalt thrice deny
that thou knowest me.

(Luk. 22:34)

* If you wish to discuss the other points raised then another thread will be needed, otherwise the subject of this thread will be derailed.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Online francis drake

Re: Luke 23:43, misunderstanding caused by punctuation error
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2017, 08:12:04 PM »
Hello f.d.,

In the verse you quoted, the words, 'this day' did not follow the verb, but preceded it.
 
That's what I said.
It preceded the verb and qualified it.
Quote
* If you wish to discuss the other points raised then another thread will be needed, otherwise the subject of this thread will be derailed.
This is all about the thread and a non existent comma.
You can hardly raise points and halt discussion of them when it doesn't suit you Cariad
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)