Author Topic: we shall remember  (Read 103 times)

Description: the futility of war

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Offline francis drake

Re: we shall remember
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2017, 10:52:58 PM »
Hi
I would like to start by apologising in case anything I say may offend anyone it is not my intention I have been wondering around all week with this going around in my head and have finally plucked up the courage to ask the question.

As you know this week has been all about remembrance of all those who have died in war nothing wrong with that but why on earth have we not learned anything from it.

So my question is should the church as a worldwide organisation condone it by blessing troops who are going out to kill other Christians should the church be above polotics should the church follow the teachings of scripture.

Exo 20:13  Thou shalt not kill.
The original Hebrew refers to murder, not killing in wartime. Neither does it halt the execution of violent criminals, murderers etc. which we are commended to do.
If it referred to killing in war, it would be a bit hypocritical of God to issue the commandment "Thou shalt not kill," and then commanding them to kill all the inhabitants of the land.

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Luk 6:27  But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

Mat 5:43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
   [/color]
Quoting Matt5v44 is a bit risky Dave. If you insist we apply it then you are also obliged to apply the other verses when you fail.
ie.
 Matt5v29?If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30?If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

You cannot cherry pick verses from Matt5 as you have done unless you apply all of Matt5. That means by now, you Dave, would be limbless and blind in both eyes and typing this thread with your nose.

Go read it again Dave, Matt5 was aimed at those who thought perfection could be obtained by works of self perfection. Jesus merely pointed out the impossibility of the idea.

Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline francis drake

Re: we shall remember
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2017, 11:03:00 PM »
Hi Chris
Thanks for your reply But its not what I'm trying to get at the secular world dose what the secular world dose what I'm trying to get at what should the Church of Jesus Christ be doing when we are commanded not to kill.
Should the church be above polotics should it be obedient to the teachings of Christ which Love should we as obedient Christians be refuse to bare arms I mean this on a world wide scale.

Love and Peace
Dave

Joshua5v13Now it came about when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand, and Joshua went to him and said to him, ?Are you for us or for our adversaries??
14He said, ?No; rather I indeed come now as captain of the host of the LORD.? And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, ?What has my lord to say to his servant??
15 The captain of the LORD?S host said to Joshua, ?Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.? And Joshua did so.


Who do you think the "Captain of the host of the Lord" was, other than Jesus Christ himself? (The word "host" means "army.")

So Jesus was about to lead his army into the slaughter of the whole city of Jericho. (Apart from Rahab of course)

Refusing to bear arms is not a Christian teaching. It is a great deception that certain churches have maintained for far too long.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

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Re: we shall remember
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2017, 02:52:29 PM »
Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply always good for stimulating the little grey cells I wonder who said that.

You said
Quote
The original Hebrew refers to murder, not killing in wartime. Neither does it halt the execution of violent criminals, murderers etc. which we are commended to do.
If it referred to killing in war, it would be a bit hypocritical of God to issue the commandment "Thou shalt not kill," and then commanding them to kill all the inhabitants of the land.   

With respect Frances this is only your word not the words of scripture which are " thou shalt not kill " there are no get out clauses with the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ we entered a new dispensation we are also commanded to go into the world and kill but we do it through baptism and new birth our weapon of choice the sword of truth which is the word of God.

If as you say killing in war dose not count do you think that God sitting in heaven looking down on the slaughter of 60 to 100 million souls in two world wars clapped his hands in approval many of those on both sides were professing Christians.

Quote
Quoting Matt5v44 is a bit risky Dave. If you insist we apply it then you are also obliged to apply the other verses when you fail.
ie.
 Matt5v29?If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30?If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

You cannot cherry pick verses from Matt5 as you have done unless you apply all of Matt5. That means by now, you Dave, would be limbless and blind in both eyes and typing this thread with your nose.

Go read it again Dave, Matt5 was aimed at those who thought perfection could be obtained by works of self perfection. Jesus merely pointed out the impossibility of the idea.
   

The reference to the eye and the hand above is eluding to Lust and stealing which is against the law and if you break any of the laws you break the whole law and therefore you are not acting in LOVE.

Quote
Joshua5v13Now it came about when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing opposite him with his sword drawn in his hand, and Joshua went to him and said to him, ?Are you for us or for our adversaries??
14He said, ?No; rather I indeed come now as captain of the host of the LORD.? And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and bowed down, and said to him, ?What has my lord to say to his servant??
15 The captain of the LORD?S host said to Joshua, ?Remove your sandals from your feet, for the place where you are standing is holy.? And Joshua did so.

Who do you think the "Captain of the host of the Lord" was, other than Jesus Christ himself? (The word "host" means "army.")

So Jesus was about to lead his army into the slaughter of the whole city of Jericho. (Apart from Rahab of course)

Refusing to bear arms is not a Christian teaching. It is a great deception that certain churches have maintained for far too long. 

Well Frances I am not sure what you are trying to prove with the above if the "Captain of the host of the Lord" went before Joshua and put all the inhabitants to sleep  (Apart from Rahab of course) what's wrong with that God will raise them up at the resurrection God can do that we can't.

Love and Peace
Dave

 
       

Offline John

Re: we shall remember
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2017, 06:20:35 PM »
The ten commandments referrs to the deliberate killing of another person, that is murder. There are other regulation that referr to accidental killing or man slaughter which is not murder.
It is why cities of refuge were set up so that those guilty of manslaughter could run to in order to escape the vengens of the dead mans friends and relatives.

War, at least a defensive war is not murder.

The first world war was blatent agression on the part of the Germans, as was the second world war.
Anyone would be hard pressed to prove that Britain has fourght an agressive war to benefit us in the last couple of centuaries.

There is also a difference between what is expected of us as Christians and what is expected of us as obedient citzens. Each of us would have to decide in the event of a war whether we would serve or not.

Offline francis drake

Re: we shall remember
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2017, 08:35:15 PM »
Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply always good for stimulating the little grey cells I wonder who said that.
St Hercule of Poirot said it, many times, as quoted by his scribe, St Agatha of Christie..
Quote
You said
With respect Frances this is only your word not the words of scripture which are " thou shalt not kill " there are no get out clauses with the teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ we entered a new dispensation we are also commanded to go into the world and kill but we do it through baptism and new birth our weapon of choice the sword of truth which is the word of God.
But its not just me that says the "thou shalt not kill" commandment refers to murder, many translations say that as does the original Hebrew.
Of the 21 different bible translations of that commandment found on biblehub.com concordance, 14 translate it as murder.

But if as you say we have entered a "new dispensation", then you cannot resort to quoting the Ten Commandments from that "old dispensation" can you Dave. That's cherry picking scriptures out of context Dave.
Quote
If as you say killing in war dose not count do you think that God sitting in heaven looking down on the slaughter of 60 to 100 million souls in two world wars clapped his hands in approval many of those on both sides were professing Christians.
That's a silly argument Dave, and a bit beneath you.
There are countless things that God disapproves of yet permits. If you want to ask daft questions like that, then you need to answer this one Dave. Did God claps his hands in approval when millions drowned in the flood that He orchestrated?
Quote
The reference to the eye and the hand above is eluding to Lust and stealing which is against the law and if you break any of the laws you break the whole law and therefore you are not acting in LOVE.
Stealing isn't even mentioned in that chapter Dave is it? The command to pluck your eyes out or chop your hand off refers to any failure in compliance of the law. And as you say, if you break any of the laws, you've broken them all.
You have done what far too many people do, just quote selected parts of the scriptures that suit you, and ignore the bits that contradict you. Matt5 is one whole cohesive teaching.
Quote
Well Frances I am not sure what you are trying to prove with the above if the "Captain of the host of the Lord" went before Joshua and put all the inhabitants to sleep  (Apart from Rahab of course) what's wrong with that God will raise them up at the resurrection God can do that we can't.     
Stick to the script Dave and stop adding fairy tales to the story. Jesus, the Captain of the Host of The Lord, didn't put anyone to sleep, he slaughtered them with great violence and bloodshed.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

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Re: we shall remember
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2017, 04:12:50 PM »
Hi Frances
You said.
Quote
St Hercule of Poirot said it, many times, as quoted by his scribe, St Agatha of Christie   
Well done you answered correctly  :thumbs_up:

Quote
But its not just me that says the "thou shalt not kill" commandment refers to murder, many translations say that as does the original Hebrew.
Of the 21 different bible translations of that commandment found on biblehub.com concordance, 14 translate it as murder.
   

As you may know I usually use the KJV I believe this translation to be inspired by the Holy Spirit and I don't believe in changing the word of scripture jest to suit my theology my bible says " thou shalt not kill " end of.

Quote
But if as you say we have entered a "new dispensation", then you cannot resort to quoting the Ten Commandments from that "old dispensation" can you Dave. That's cherry picking scriptures out of context Dave   

Why can't I quote the ten commandments the have not been taken  away they are still in force its jest our Lord has given us a better way to comply with them through LOVE. ( I know love is a boring subject but God Is LOVE )

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That's a silly argument Dave, and a bit beneath you.
There are countless things that God disapproves of yet permits. If you want to ask daft questions like that, then you need to answer this one Dave. Did God claps his hands in approval when millions drowned in the flood that He orchestrated   

All I know Frances is what ever God dose he dose because he Loves us he even sent his son to Die for us its a case os don't do as God dose but do as he tells you thou shalt not kill and love one another.

Quote
You have done what far too many people do, just quote selected parts of the scriptures that suit you, and ignore the bits that contradict you. Matt5 is one whole cohesive teaching   

A teaching about what may I ask.

Quote
Stick to the script Dave and stop adding fairy tales to the story. Jesus, the Captain of the Host of The Lord, didn't put anyone to sleep, he slaughtered them with great violence and bloodshed.   

I think you got this wrong as the following will show.

Jos 6:20  So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.
Jos 6:21  And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.
 


It looks to me that the Israelites took the city.

Love and Peace
Dave


Offline davetaff

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Re: we shall remember
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2017, 04:22:40 PM »
The ten commandments referrs to the deliberate killing of another person, that is murder. There are other regulation that referr to accidental killing or man slaughter which is not murder.
It is why cities of refuge were set up so that those guilty of manslaughter could run to in order to escape the vengens of the dead mans friends and relatives.

War, at least a defensive war is not murder.

The first world war was blatent agression on the part of the Germans, as was the second world war.
Anyone would be hard pressed to prove that Britain has fourght an agressive war to benefit us in the last couple of centuaries.

There is also a difference between what is expected of us as Christians and what is expected of us as obedient citzens. Each of us would have to decide in the event of a war whether we would serve or not.

Hi John
Thank you for your reply and some years ago I may have agreed with it but after much thought I have come to the conclusion that all killing is wrong and against Christ laws of love .
This thread seems to be going way of track what I was trying to get at should the Church of Jesus Christ as a global body be doing much more to promote Peace and Love in the world according to the scriptures.
Is the church wrong in condoning war by blessing those going out to kill.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Cariad

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Re: we shall remember
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2017, 04:42:49 PM »
Hi John
Thank you for your reply and some years ago I may have agreed with it but after much thought I have come to the conclusion that all killing is wrong and against Christ laws of love .
This thread seems to be going way of track what I was trying to get at should the Church of Jesus Christ as a global body be doing much more to promote Peace and Love in the world according to the scriptures.
Is the church wrong in condoning war by blessing those going out to kill.

Love and Peace
Dave
@davetaff

Hello Dave,

Surely it is not the action to kill that is being blessed, but those who are in the dreadful position of having to go to war: the individual soldiers who, as members of the armed forces have to go to war on behalf of the nation they joined up to serve.

Is it not the men and women themselves who are being committed to God's mercy and care, and not the condoning of war itself by the representatives of the church.

The reason for the war must also be taken into consideration.  We have been subjected on the news for months now to reports of beheadings and the slaughter of the innocents by ISIS, are we to allow such a force to continue with no attempt to prevent them? Or are we to leave such dirty work to those whom you speak of as part of 'the secular world'.  That secular world is made up of someone's son or daughter, who happen to belong to the forces which defend our country.  Do we as believers in the Lord Jesus Christ let them bear the burden of our freedom and refuse to take up arms ourselves, if so, what right do we have to enjoy that freedom at all.

You cannot deny the warfare that took place in the Old Testament in God's Name, Dave, for it happened.  Francis Drake has given a reason for that which you have chosen to overlook, but to refuse to take these things into account makes a nonsense of your argument my friend.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad