Author Topic: we shall remember  (Read 98 times)

Description: the futility of war

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Offline davetaff

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we shall remember
« on: November 12, 2017, 02:34:24 PM »
Hi
I would like to start by apologising in case anything I say may offend anyone it is not my intention I have been wondering around all week with this going around in my head and have finally plucked up the courage to ask the question.

As you know this week has been all about remembrance of all those who have died in war nothing wrong with that but why on earth have we not learned anything from it.

So my question is should the church as a worldwide organisation condone it by blessing troops who are going out to kill other Christians should the church be above polotics should the church follow the teachings of scripture.

Exo 20:13  Thou shalt not kill.

Luk 6:27  But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

Mat 5:43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
   


So should the church as a worldwide organisation with millions of members encourage even order them to refuse to fight lets tell the world we have had enough of this gross stupidity that millions of ordinary men and women have to die because a couple of megalomaniacs can't see eye to eye.

So should we follow the teachings of Christ or the orders of men.

Love and Peace
Dave
     



Offline Cariad

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Re: we shall remember
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2017, 04:00:00 PM »
Hi
I would like to start by apologising in case anything I say may offend anyone it is not my intention I have been wondering around all week with this going around in my head and have finally plucked up the courage to ask the question.

As you know this week has been all about remembrance of all those who have died in war nothing wrong with that but why on earth have we not learned anything from it.

So my question is should the church as a worldwide organisation condone it by blessing troops who are going out to kill other Christians should the church be above polotics should the church follow the teachings of scripture.

Exo 20:13  Thou shalt not kill.

Luk 6:27  But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

Mat 5:43  Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
   


So should the church as a worldwide organisation with millions of members encourage even order them to refuse to fight lets tell the world we have had enough of this gross stupidity that millions of ordinary men and women have to die because a couple of megalomaniacs can't see eye to eye.

So should we follow the teachings of Christ or the orders of men.

Love and Peace
Dave     

'From whence come wars and fightings among you?
come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?'

(Jas 4:1) 

Hello @davetaff,

So, should Britain have not gone to the aid of Poland when it was invaded by Germany? Even though they had signed a treaty to defend them if such an eventuality should occur?  Also, would not the troops sent out for that purpose, also need the prayerful support of Christians back home?

Would you not take up arms to defend your family against those who wished to kill them?

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline Cariad

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Re: we shall remember
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2017, 04:16:38 PM »
'Then said He (the Lord Jesus Christ) unto them,
"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip:
and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. ... "'

(Luke 22:36) 

Hello again, @davetaff,

What was the sword for, in the verse above, if not for defence?

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: we shall remember
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2017, 04:19:15 PM »
Hi Chris
Thanks for your reply But its not what I'm trying to get at the secular world dose what the secular world dose what I'm trying to get at what should the Church of Jesus Christ be doing when we are commanded not to kill.
Should the church be above polotics should it be obedient to the teachings of Christ which Love should we as obedient Christians be refuse to bare arms I mean this on a world wide scale.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Cariad

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Re: we shall remember
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2017, 04:27:51 PM »
Hi Chris
Thanks for your reply But its not what I'm trying to get at the secular world dose what the secular world dose what I'm trying to get at what should the Church of Jesus Christ be doing when we are commanded not to kill.
Should the church be above polotics should it be obedient to the teachings of Christ which Love should we as obedient Christians be refuse to bare arms I mean this on a world wide scale.

Love and Peace
Dave

You have not read my post, Dave, for it was the Lord Jesus Christ who instructed His disciples to arm themselves with a sword, as a weapon of defence, in Luke 22:36.(for they were going to be scattered)

Also, God Himself instructed the children of Israel to destroy the inhabitants of the land of Canaan for their evil had come to the full: are we better than He?

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: we shall remember
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2017, 05:03:21 PM »
Hi Cris
You gave a verse from Luke but we need to luke at the following verse as well

Luk 22:36  Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Luk 22:37  For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
   


The only reason he told them to buy a sword was to fulfil the following prophecy

Isa 53:12  Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.   

When our lord comes again he will use the sword of his mouth which is the word of God.

If God approves of killing then it makes a nonsense of the laws of Love dose it not.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Cariad

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Re: we shall remember
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2017, 05:24:18 PM »
'And He said unto them,
"When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes,(Luke 9)
lacked ye any thing?

And they said, "Nothing."
Then said He unto them,
"But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it,
and likewise his scrip:
and he that hath no sword,
let him sell his garment, and buy one.'

(Luke 22:3)  '

Hello @davetaff,

The point is that the Lord instructed His disciples to arm themselves with a sword.  Peter, as we know, used it in our Lord's defence, by cutting off the ear of one of the soldiers which came to arrest Him (John 18:10). The Lord does not reprimand Peter, simply restores the ear of the man injured: for the sword was not for His defence but for theirs, for they would be scattered, and without Him.

Luke 22:37 adds nothing to alter the fact: for it refers to what was prophesied concerning Him, and what He would yet have to endure. For He would be, 'reckoned among the transgressors' on the cross, when He would be accompanied by transgressors on His right hand and on His left.

No, it does not make a nonsense of the law concerning love, Dave, it is simply that they need to be understood, and not misapplied.  What are the laws you are thinking of particularly?

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: we shall remember
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2017, 06:36:34 PM »
Hi Chris
These are the laws I am this king of.

.  29  And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

 30  And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

 31  And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these

       44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

 45  That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust   


How can we keep these laws if we kill fellow Christians or non Christians.

Love and Peace
Dave