Author Topic: 'Reverend'  (Read 76 times)

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Offline Deborah

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Re: 'Reverend'
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2017, 11:01:55 AM »
Hello Deborah,

Yes, respect is due to the office, regardless of what that office is.  However, it is not necessary to be accompanied by an epithet, attached to the person holding that office, which in and of itself requires a form of reverence.

Paul is an example of one who did not take his position as a called 'Apostle' lightly, he held it in reverence, and sought by word and deed to be worthy of it, but had to defend his position on a daily basis before the public he ministered to.  He did not have the title, 'Reverend,' to hide behind; and worked as a weaver of cloth for tent making to earn money to pay his own way rather than take from those whom he served, even though he acknowledged that a workman was worthy of his hire.  He earned whatever respect he received by his daily life and witness, for he lived to the glory of God.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

I think you're attaching far too much importance to the derivation of the word. Nobody today (that I know of) kowtows to someone just because they're an ordained clergyman. 'Reverend' is just a courtesy title today, whatever it might have meant hundreds of years ago.
I have the title 'Dr'. Now the word 'doctor' originally meant 'teacher' (in Latin) - but that isn't a description of my profession at all! The meaning of the word has changed over the centuries. Now would you accuse doctors of 'hiding behind' their title? That isn't what it's there for! It's a very useful label that we're privileged to carry, and the vast majority of us do our utmost to be worthy of our profession.

You say that Paul didn't have a 'title' to hide behind - but he had been called as an apostle and was not reticent about applying that label to himself. He had to either live up to that calling or 'hide behind' the label. What's the essential difference between that and the lesser leaders of today who have to live up to their own calling and appointment?
"God has saved us and called us to a holy life - not because of anything we have done but because of His own purpose and grace." (II Timothy 1:9)

Offline Cariad

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Re: 'Reverend'
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2017, 01:56:36 PM »
I think you're attaching far too much importance to the derivation of the word. Nobody today (that I know of) kowtows to someone just because they're an ordained clergyman. 'Reverend' is just a courtesy title today, whatever it might have meant hundreds of years ago.
I have the title 'Dr'. Now the word 'doctor' originally meant 'teacher' (in Latin) - but that isn't a description of my profession at all! The meaning of the word has changed over the centuries. Now would you accuse doctors of 'hiding behind' their title? That isn't what it's there for! It's a very useful label that we're privileged to carry, and the vast majority of us do our utmost to be worthy of our profession.

You say that Paul didn't have a 'title' to hide behind - but he had been called as an apostle and was not reticent about applying that label to himself. He had to either live up to that calling or 'hide behind' the label. What's the essential difference between that and the lesser leaders of today who have to live up to their own calling and appointment?

Hello @Deborah,

The titles of Apostle (in Paul's case), of Doctor, Teacher and so on, are descriptive of the work done.  However the word, 'Reverend' is no so.  It is an honorary title rather than a job description.

I am sure that the majority of those who work in the Christian ministry are conscientious, that is not the issue: the title is.

You appear to be taking this personally, Deborah, yet it is not a personal issue, it simply concerns the title.  I apologise if my words 'to hide behind' have caused you offence; but I believe an honorary title is something which should be earned by more than the achievement of a divinity degree.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline Deborah

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Re: 'Reverend'
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2017, 03:22:26 PM »
Hello @Deborah,

The titles of Apostle (in Paul's case), of Doctor, Teacher and so on, are descriptive of the work done.  However the word, 'Reverend' is no so.  It is an honorary title rather than a job description.

I am sure that the majority of those who work in the Christian ministry are conscientious, that is not the issue: the title is.

You appear to be taking this personally, Deborah, yet it is not a personal issue, it simply concerns the title.  I apologise if my words 'to hide behind' have caused you offence; but I believe an honorary title is something which should be earned by more than the achievement of a divinity degree.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

It's a lot more complicated than that. 'Doctor' doesn't always describe an occupation - anyone with a PhD in any subject is properly entitled 'Dr'. That is actually the clearest possible example of a title conferred simply on the grounds of an academic qualification.
Whereas a degree in theology on its own doesn't entitle you to be 'Reverend X'. I know a lot of people with degrees in theology, but they aren't professional clergy.

The title 'Reverend' keeps being used because it conveys useful information. It tells you that the person in question is a minister of religion, and that they have been appropriately trained and officially recognised by their denomination. What is the real problem - is it the existence of a label (in the form of a title) for this group of people, or is it the nature of the word that's being used as the label?
"God has saved us and called us to a holy life - not because of anything we have done but because of His own purpose and grace." (II Timothy 1:9)

Offline Cariad

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Re: 'Reverend'
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2017, 03:45:30 PM »
It's a lot more complicated than that. 'Doctor' doesn't always describe an occupation - anyone with a PhD in any subject is properly entitled 'Dr'. That is actually the clearest possible example of a title conferred simply on the grounds of an academic qualification.
Whereas a degree in theology on its own doesn't entitle you to be 'Reverend X'. I know a lot of people with degrees in theology, but they aren't professional clergy.

The title 'Reverend' keeps being used because it conveys useful information. It tells you that the person in question is a minister of religion, and that they have been appropriately trained and officially recognised by their denomination. What is the real problem - is it the existence of a label (in the form of a title) for this group of people, or is it the nature of the word that's being used as the label?

Hello @Deborah,

I believe I have already explained myself adequately. If we continue, we will simply be going around in circles.

However the roles within the Church are clear enough aren't they?  Pastor, Teacher, Evangelist, etc., should anything more be needed regarding a title? 

Respectfully
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline Cariad

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Re: 'Reverend'
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2017, 07:49:52 AM »
Hello again,

Returning, finally, to Psalm 111:9. (see the OP)

'He sent redemption unto His People:
He hath commanded His covenant for ever:
Holy and reverend is His Name.'


Looking at the following verse, I see that the same Hebrew word, 'yare', is used again, this time translated, 'fear'.

'The fear of the Lord
is the beginning of wisdom.'


In the light of this I am glad that the word reverend was used, instead of 'fearful' in verse nine, for it shows us how we are to understand 'the fear of the Lord', meaning to revere Him, which is a godly fear.

* His Name, and all that it encompasses concerning Him, is to be revered, with a godly fear, which is the beginning of wisdom.

Praise The Lord! (Jehovah)

Thank you for your patience
In Christ Jesus
Cariad