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Offline Cariad

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What is the truth for today?
« on: October 14, 2017, 01:27:09 PM »
'For God so loved the world,
that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in Him
should not perish,
but have everlasting life.'

(John3:16)

'He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:
and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life;
but the wrath of God abideth on him.'

(John 3:36) 

'Verily, verily, I say unto you,
He that heareth My word,
and believeth on Him that sent Me
,
hath everlasting life,
and shall not come into condemnation;
but is passed from death unto life.'

(John 5:24) 

* Why are we told in above verses from John's gospel etc., that the only requirement for eternal life is to believe the report given concerning the Lord Jesus Christ, whereas in Matthew 19:16-17, a man is told to keep the commandments in order to receive eternal life? Were things different then? If this point differed, is it possible that the things that Christ taught during His earthly ministry are different than those truths for us gentiles today? Is it possible that Christ was, as He claimed, sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel? What is the truth for today? Maybe we should follow the instruction given in 2 Timothy 2:15, and rightly divide the word of truth: and also try (or test) the things that differ (Phil. 1:10 margin).

* What say you?

In Christ Jesus
Cariad




Offline davetaff

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Re: What is the truth for today?
« Reply #1 on: October 14, 2017, 05:04:27 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your Question very stimulating for the little grey cells.

'He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life 

is believeth on the same as believing what Christ taught which would mean what he taught applies to everyone Jew and gentile alike.

you said

Matthew 19:16-17, a man is told to keep the commandments in order to receive eternal life?   

I don't think the law as given to Israel where made null and void with the coming of Christ He jest gave us a better way of fulfilling them with Love.

Mar 12:29  And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
Mar 12:30  And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

Mar 12:31  And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
       Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
 


is believing in Christ the same as believing what he teaches us the whole of scripture is the word of God can we afford to disregard any of it.
I think some Christians believe the law as given to Moses dose not apply to them the law tells us what sin is and its consequences so it is useful don't you think.

Love and Peace
Dave 


Offline Cariad

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Re: What is the truth for today?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2017, 12:53:36 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your Question very stimulating for the little grey cells.
Hi Dave,

You sound like Hercule Poirot, Dave, talking of exercising your 'little grey cells'. :)
I thought I would ask a few challenging questions to stimulate participation.
Quote
'He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life 
Is  believeth 'on' the same as believing 'what' Christ taught? which would mean what he taught applies to everyone Jew and gentile alike.

*  Your question regarding the word, 'on', in John 3:36; Is proving to be interesting, so 'thank you', Dave.  For the use of the title, SON, makes a difference to the answer I believe. Let's look at the verse in full, including verse 35,

'The Father loveth the Son,
and hath given all things into His hand.'


(Isn't this thrilling? 'All things' have been given into our Lord's hands: when you think of what it signifies.  For as,'Son of God' and 'Son of Man', the dominion it covers encompasses both heaven and earth, and so much more, which is beyond our comprehension!)

'He That believes on the Son
hath everlasting life:
and he that believes not the Son
shall not see life;
but the wrath of God
abides on Him.'


In this case I believe, 'on', ('believes on the Son'), relates to our Lord as the Son of God', to Him in this capacity, with all that it signifies.  As John 20:31 says,

'... but these are written,
that ye might believe
That Jesus is the Christ,
The Son of God;

and that believing
ye might have life
THROUGH HIS NAME.'


With love in Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline Deborah

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Re: What is the truth for today?
« Reply #3 on: October 15, 2017, 03:29:25 PM »
* Why are we told in above verses from John's gospel etc., that the only requirement for eternal life is to believe the report given concerning the Lord Jesus Christ, whereas in Matthew 19:16-17, a man is told to keep the commandments in order to receive eternal life? Were things different then? If this point differed, is it possible that the things that Christ taught during His earthly ministry are different than those truths for us gentiles today? Is it possible that Christ was, as He claimed, sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel? What is the truth for today? Maybe we should follow the instruction given in 2 Timothy 2:15, and rightly divide the word of truth: and also try (or test) the things that differ (Phil. 1:10 margin).

* What say you?

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

It's important to read the whole interchange between Jesus and the rich young man. Jesus starts with the Law, because that is where the young man is: he is a Jew, and he endeavours to keep the Law. But the conversation doesn't end there. By the end of it, the Law has vanished out of sight (selling all one's possessions was never a requirement of the Law!); perfection and eternal life are to be gained only by following Jesus. So this passage demonstrates how "the Law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:24)
"God has saved us and called us to a holy life - not because of anything we have done but because of His own purpose and grace." (II Timothy 1:9)

Offline Cariad

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Re: What is the truth for today?
« Reply #4 on: October 15, 2017, 08:14:19 PM »
It's important to read the whole interchange between Jesus and the rich young man. Jesus starts with the Law, because that is where the young man is: he is a Jew, and he endeavours to keep the Law. But the conversation doesn't end there. By the end of it, the Law has vanished out of sight (selling all one's possessions was never a requirement of the Law!); perfection and eternal life are to be gained only by following Jesus. So this passage demonstrates how "the Law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith." (Galatians 3:24)
@Deborah

Hello there,

Thank you for your post, and I agree that the whole interchange between the rich young man and our Lord must be read (Matt. 19:16-22), if we would get a correct understanding.

'And, behold, one came and said unto Him,
"Good Master,
what good thing shall I do,
that I may have eternal life?"

And He said unto him,
"Why callest thou Me good?
there is none good but one, that is, God:
but if thou wilt enter into life,
keep the commandments."


'He saith unto Him, "Which?"
Jesus said,
"Thou shalt do no murder,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Honour thy father and thy mother: and,
Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
"

(Exod.20:12-16;Deut. 5:16-20; Lev.19:18))

'The young man saith unto Him,
"All these things have I kept from my youth up:
what lack I yet?
"

Jesus said unto him,
" If thou wilt be perfect,
go and sell that thou hast,
and give to the poor,
and thou shalt have treasure in heaven:
and come and follow me.
"

But when the young man heard that saying,
he went away sorrowful:
for he had great possessions.'


* This is the interchange between the rich man and our Lord, though further teaching follows between our Lord and His disciples as a result of it.
* When asked by the rich young man which of the commandments he was to keep, in response to our Lord's words, 'keep the commandments'(v.17); the Lord lists five of them, (the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th and 5th), leaving out the 10th, (Exo 20:17)

'Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house,
thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife,
.. nor his manservant,
.... nor his maidservant,
...... nor his ox,
........ nor his ass,
.......... nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.'


The Lord left out the 10th commandment, and in doing so convicted the young man out of his own mouth, for he answers and says that he has kept 'all these' commandments:  but the 10th brings him under conviction, when the Lord tells him to 'sell that thou hast', for he was a covetous man, and 'had great possessions', and so he goes away sad.

No, to 'sell that thou hast', was not a requirement of the law, Deborah, as you say, but these words highlighted the young man's weakness and brought him under conviction of the covetousness which kept this young man from keeping of the 10th commandment, which our Lord refrained from quoting; and from following Him.

That it demonstrates the truth of Galatians 3:24, in your opinion, Deborah, with respect, is simply your interpretation, and not what is actually written at that time. The truth of Galatians 3:24, applies to a time yet to come: this young man, was still under the schoolmaster, and knew nothing of justification by faith; and the time had not come to make it known.

We can look back at this record in Matthew with the benefit of the knowledge that followed our Lord's death and resurrection, but it was incumbent upon the rich young man to keep the commandments, as a Jew, under the law, which was part of the covenant made between God and Israel at Sinai.

Thank you,
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline Deborah

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Re: What is the truth for today?
« Reply #5 on: October 15, 2017, 10:09:37 PM »
@Deborah

Hello there,

Thank you for your post, and I agree that the whole interchange between the rich young man and our Lord must be read (Matt. 19:16-22), if we would get a correct understanding.


* When asked by the rich young man which of the commandments he was to keep, in response to our Lord's words, 'keep the commandments'(v.17); the Lord lists five of them, (the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th and 5th), leaving out the 10th, (Exo 20:17)

'Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house,
thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife,
.. nor his manservant,
.... nor his maidservant,
...... nor his ox,
........ nor his ass,
.......... nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.'


The Lord left out the 10th commandment, and in doing so convicted the young man out of his own mouth, for he answers and says that he has kept 'all these' commandments:  but the 10th brings him under conviction, when the Lord tells him to 'sell that thou hast', for he was a covetous man, and 'had great possessions', and so he goes away sad.

No, to 'sell that thou hast', was not a requirement of the law, Deborah, as you say, but these words highlighted the young man's weakness and brought him under conviction of the covetousness which kept this young man from keeping of the 10th commandment, which our Lord refrained from quoting; and from following Him.


Thank you,
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Cariad, what about the first four commandments (also not mentioned)? What makes you think that the young man was guilty of covetousness? His riches were his own, not someone else's... surely it was the first commandment that he was breaking, by making Money his idol, and not the tenth.

Quote
That it demonstrates the truth of Galatians 3:24, in your opinion, Deborah, with respect, is simply your interpretation, and not what is actually written at that time. The truth of Galatians 3:24, applies to a time yet to come: this young man, was still under the schoolmaster, and knew nothing of justification by faith; and the time had not come to make it known.

And this is simply your interpretation, which happens to be different and is not actually written anywhere.

Quote
We can look back at this record in Matthew with the benefit of the knowledge that followed our Lord's death and resurrection, but it was incumbent upon the rich young man to keep the commandments, as a Jew, under the law, which was part of the covenant made between God and Israel at Sinai.

Jesus told the rich young man to 'follow Him' for salvation. This is not justification through the Law but apart from the Law; it required him to commit himself to Jesus as the Messiah/Christ (just as in John 20:31). His understanding would have been limited prior to the resurrection, but saving faith does not require full understanding (the thief on the cross, for example). The requirement to sell all his possessions was what (in his case) repentance would involve; he had to repudiate his idol.
The apostles understood these things only after the resurrection; this is why they are spelled out clearly for us in the letters, whereas the synoptic gospels are a bare account of what Jesus said and did with very little in the way of explanation and interpretation. Romans 3:21,22 and Galatians 2:16 give us the theoretical principle; but in the story of the rich young man we see that very principle being acted out (or at least, we would do, if the man had said yes!).
"God has saved us and called us to a holy life - not because of anything we have done but because of His own purpose and grace." (II Timothy 1:9)

Offline Cariad

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Re: What is the truth for today?
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2017, 10:44:15 AM »
Quote
@Deborah:
Cariad, what about the first four commandments (also not mentioned)? What makes you think that the young man was guilty of covetousness? His riches were his own, not someone else's... surely it was the first commandment that he was breaking, by making Money his idol, and not the tenth.
Hi Deborah,

I am so glad you have responded.  (There is a storm 'glow' outside my window as I type with the promise of the high winds the weather forecasters have been warning about, so I hope you have battened down your hatches.)

No, this man obviously was covetous, if not for another's goods, then definitely in hanging on to his own.  The love of money is the root of all evil, but it is a covetous spirit which would make someone reluctant to part with it. Why should our Lord have said what he did, about selling what the young man had, if not to expose this?

I was recently given a lot of wool, of many colours and textures, and I was like a person who had discovered a treasure chest of jewels.  I received them with the view to passing them on to others who would make use of them, but I had a fight within myself to let them go.  Regardless of the fact that I will never use them.  I loved looking at them, and dreaming about their possibilities.  I was being covetous, or maybe avaricious, but  certainly did not want to share them.

Quote
And this is simply your interpretation, which happens to be different and is not actually written anywhere.

Yes, I am just as capable of that as anyone else, but I do believe the evidence is there for all to see, in what the Lord said, and the young man's reaction to it.
 
Quote
Jesus told the rich young man to 'follow Him' for salvation.

There was a little more than that though wasn't there, Deborah? The young man was told, that if he wanted to be 'perfect',  to go and sell his property and possessions (all that he had),'and give it to the poor' : for in so doing he would have treasure in heaven; it is then it is said, 'and come and follow Me.'. Peter, later picked up on this, didn't he? Saying, that he and the other disciples had left all to follow Him, and questioning what they would receive for having done so, and the answer given is glorious. 

The words, 'if thou wilt be perfect' in v.21, has with it the promise of reward.  The young man wanted eternal life, but the Lord showed Him the way to gain 'treasures' in heaven too.  Sadly, though his 'sadness' gave evidence of conviction,  yet he walked away.

Quote
This is not justification through the Law but apart from the Law; it required him to commit himself to Jesus as the Messiah/Chgairist (just as in John 20:31). His understanding would have been limited prior to the resurrection, but saving faith does not require full understanding (the thief on the cross, for example). The requirement to sell all his possessions was what (in his case) repentance would involve; he had to repudiate his idol.
The apostles understood these things only after the resurrection; this is why they are spelled out clearly for us in the letters, whereas the synoptic gospels are a bare account of what Jesus said and did with very little in the way of explanation and interpretation. Romans 3:21,22 and Galatians 2:16 give us the theoretical principle; but in the story of the rich young man we see that very principle being acted out (or at least, we would do, if the man had said yes!).

It is true that the Holy Spirit brought to the disciples remembrance what Jesus had said and done while He was with them, as the Lord had promised in John 14:26  However, the young man in Matthew 19 was told, ' ... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments, 'in answer to his initial question, and in answer to, 'which?', our Lord gave Him a synopsis, intimating 'All' (Lev.18:5).

'Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein:
I am the LORD your God.
Ye shall therefore keep My statutes, and My judgments:
which if a man do, he shall live in them:
I am the LORD.'

(Lev 18:4,5) 

In Christ Jesus
Cariad
 

Offline Deborah

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Re: What is the truth for today?
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2017, 11:17:11 AM »
Hi Deborah,

No, this man obviously was covetous, if not for another's goods, then definitely in hanging on to his own.  The love of money is the root of all evil, but it takes a covetous spirit to prevent someone wishing to part with it.  Why should our Lord have said what he did, about selling what the young man had, if not to expose this?

I was recently given a lot of wool, of many colours and textures, and I was like a person who had discovered a treasure chest of jewels.  I received them with the view to passing them on to others who would make use of them, but I had a fight within myself to let them go.  Regardless of the fact that I will never use them.  I loved looking at them, and dreaming about their possibilities.  I was being covetous, or maybe avaricious, but  certainly did not want to share them.

Your definition of covetousness is not quite the same as mine, evidently! The tenth commandment deals specifically with what (already) belongs to your neighbour. I would call what you describe 'selfishness' (something we're all guilty of!)
And what about the first four commandments? Is love of money not idolatry?
 
Quote
There was a little more than that though wasn't there, Deborah? The young man was told, that if he wanted to be 'perfect',  to go and sell his property and possessions (all that he had),'and give it to the poor' , for in so doing he would have treasure in heaven:  then is said, 'and come and follow Me.'. Peter, later picked up on this, didn't he? Saying, that he and the other disciples had left all to follow Him, and questioning what they would receive for having done so.  The answer in verse is glorious.

But as I said before, this is not the Law. This is 100% commitment to Jesus - which can only be done through faith in Him.

Quote
What you say is true, Deborah, and I thank you for expressing it. It is true that the Holy Spirit brought to the disciples remembrance what Jesus had said and done while He was with them, as the Lord had promised in John 14:26  However, the young man in Matthew 19 was told, ' ... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments, 'in answer to his initial question, and in answer to, 'which?', our Lord gave Him a synopsis, intimating 'All' (Lev.18:5).

That is true - however, the young man was not able to keep all the commandments. Nobody can. He was then confronted with Christ. In Christ alone is salvation, not in the Law. It was as true then as it is now.
"God has saved us and called us to a holy life - not because of anything we have done but because of His own purpose and grace." (II Timothy 1:9)