Author Topic: How good a christian do you think Moses was?  (Read 533 times)

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Online Cariad

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #64 on: September 17, 2017, 09:49:54 PM »
Hi Cariad,
I've held back from responding to your posts because,-
a). Dave seemed to be doing so well, and
b). I wanted time to think, and approach the dispute from a different direction.
@francis drake

Hello there,

I had the feeling you were going to come back to me on an aspect of my entry, and I thank you for doing so.

Quote
I believe the idea that Paul's statement in Acts 28 marked an official turning point in Israel's destiny is completely erroneous.
Acts 28 v28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. 29 And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

The above words were not spoken to Israel as a whole, but to an isolated group of Jews in Rome who had little or no connection with the Jewish leadership in Jerusalem. The preceding verses to Paul's statement (see below) make this fact very clear.

Acts28 v21And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee. 22 But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that everywhere it is spoken against.

Here we can see that the Jews were already aware of "this sect", but had no communications with the Jewish leadership about it.
Rome was the centre of paganism for the empire and this new sect would be counted by outsiders as just another to add to the pantheon. That the Jews knew nothing other than it was "spoken against" tells us that it could not have been operating amongst the Jews, but amongst the gentiles!
ie. When Paul left the Jews to go to the Gentiles, he was not starting something fresh and unknown. In fact others had beat him to it!

Conclusion.-
The decision that Paul gave against a peripheral synagogue in Rome, cannot possibly be used as judgement against the rest of the Jewish or Israelite  world.

I've listed several verses below where statements similar to Acts 28 are made, where no one rightly dividing the word would claim any meaning beyond what the context states, ie. that locality, and that circumstance only.

'And it came to pass, that after three days
Paul called the chief of the Jews together:
and when they were come together, he said unto them,
"Men and brethren,
though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers,
yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
Who, when they had examined me, would have let me go,
because there was no cause of death in me.
But when the Jews spake against it,
I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar;
not that I had ought to accuse my nation of.

For this cause therefore have I called for you,
to see you, and to speak with you:
because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
And they said unto him,
We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee,
neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.
'

(Act 28:17-21)

'But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest:
for as concerning this sect,
we know that every where it is spoken against.

And when they had appointed him a day,
there came many to him into his lodging;

(Acts 28:22-23a)

* It was information concerning Paul himself that was lacking, fd, not information concerning what they called, 'the sect'. They say they had not received letters concerning 'Paul's situation, or heard anything harmful concerning 'him'.

* They had heard that this 'sect' was 'everywhere spoken against.  'Everywhere', fd. This believing community in Rome was well known. The chief of the Jews at Rome requested that Paul would tell them what he thought of it. Many came to Paul's lodging to hear what he had to say.

* What did Paul tell them?

' ... to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God,
persuading them concerning Jesus,
both out of the law of Moses,
and out of the prophets,
from morning till evening.'

(Acts 28:23 - 24)

* The content of this exposition is important, fd, and should be coupled with the discourse of Paul to the elders of Ephesus in Acts 20.   A comparison of this content with that of the epistles written subsequently (Eph.Phil, Col.), will reveal a change of administration so marked, as to convince, that a change of administration had taken place, between the ministering of both. That change could only have taken place as the result of the events which took place in the later part of Acts 28.

* As to the verses you have quoted following this, from, Matthew 10; Luke 10; Acts 13 and 18, - I understand why you did so, but they are not a reflection on the event which took place in Acts 28.

Quote
If the Lord was passing judgement on Israel, it would be done in the centre of Judaism, ie. Jerusalem, and it would have been made to the Jewish leadership, ie. the priesthood.

* With respect, this is only opinion, fd. The company who met with Paul were men of authority, Chief Priests.

* The  quotation in Acts 28:25-27, from Isaiah, should also be taken into consideration, for it is important: also, the previous times when it was quoted by Paul and by our Lord, too; for they were quoted in times of crisis, and of rejection. This was a crisis point for Israel, fd.

* The following verses are descriptive of Israel's condition, and include the quotations of Isaiah 6:9,10.

Deu.9:4; Psa.81:11-12; Isa.29:10, Isa.9:14, Isa.42:19-20, Isa.66:4;
Jer.5:21; Eze.3:6-7, Eze.12:2; Mar.8:17-18; Luk.24:25, Luk.24:45; 2Cor.4:4-6

* This subject is not easy, and it will take far more than either of us have said, to resolve this.  I hope to come back soon, God willing.

Thank you for all your time and effort, fd, I thank you for it.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad




Offline Tes Johnson

Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #65 on: September 18, 2017, 12:36:09 AM »
Coming onto the websites like this have taught me a lot. They broaden our understanding and I like people who think outside of the box, challenging the limitations taught and presented in the structured churches.

I think that is what God wants and for our understanding of truth to be expanded not restricted.
Through our journey in the light of Christ.


Yes thats right


Online francis drake

Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #66 on: October 04, 2017, 09:13:02 PM »
Sorry @Cariad its taken me so long to get back on this.-
@francis drake

Hello there,

I had the feeling you were going to come back to me on an aspect of my entry, and I thank you for doing so.

'And it came to pass, that after three days
Paul called the chief of the Jews together:
and when they were come together, he said unto them,
"Men and brethren,
though I have committed nothing against the people, or customs of our fathers,
yet was I delivered prisoner from Jerusalem into the hands of the Romans.
Who, when they had examined me, would have let me go,
because there was no cause of death in me.
But when the Jews spake against it,
I was constrained to appeal unto Caesar;
not that I had ought to accuse my nation of.

For this cause therefore have I called for you,
to see you, and to speak with you:
because that for the hope of Israel I am bound with this chain.
And they said unto him,
We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee,
neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee.
'

(Act 28:17-21)

'But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest:
for as concerning this sect,
we know that every where it is spoken against.

And when they had appointed him a day,
there came many to him into his lodging;

(Acts 28:22-23a)

* It was information concerning Paul himself that was lacking, fd, not information concerning what they called, 'the sect'. They say they had not received letters concerning 'Paul's situation, or heard anything harmful concerning 'him'.
I agree with what you say above @Cariad. Nevertheless, it makes no difference whatsoever to my main theme that Acts28 could not possibly have been a change in dispensation.
Quote
* They had heard that this 'sect' was 'everywhere spoken against.  'Everywhere', fd. This believing community in Rome was well known. The chief of the Jews at Rome requested that Paul would tell them what he thought of it. Many came to Paul's lodging to hear what he had to say.

* What did Paul tell them?

' ... to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God,
persuading them concerning Jesus,
both out of the law of Moses,
and out of the prophets,
from morning till evening.'

(Acts 28:23 - 24)

* The content of this exposition is important, fd, and should be coupled with the discourse of Paul to the elders of Ephesus in Acts 20.   A comparison of this content with that of the epistles written subsequently (Eph.Phil, Col.), will reveal a change of administration so marked, as to convince, that a change of administration had taken place, between the ministering of both. That change could only have taken place as the result of the events which took place in the later part of Acts 28.
Paul's exposition in Rome on the Kingdom of God is no more important than the many similar dispositions that Paul and the other apostles regularly made on their missionary journeys.
Quote
* As to the verses you have quoted following this, from, Matthew 10; Luke 10; Acts 13 and 18, - I understand why you did so, but they are not a reflection on the event which took place in Acts 28.

* With respect, this is only opinion, fd. The company who met with Paul were men of authority, Chief Priests.
The original Greek says they were just leading men of the community in Rome. They were not the Chief Priests.
And again, if the Lord was going to publish a change in his dispensation towards the Jews, it would follow the previous pattern of doing it to the real Chief Priests of the Temple in Jerusalem, and not in a distant colony.
For the exact same reasons you pointed out above -that Jerusalem's judgement against Paul never reached Rome, likewise the judgement from an irrelevant apostate, taken against the Jews in Rome, would certainly not make the news in Jerusalem.

As pointed out previously, the scriptures show that what happened at Rome in Acts28 was little different to what happened in the Gospels and what happened elsewhere in the apostolic period.

Also @Cariad, you cannot dismiss my thoughts as mere opinion, without equally dismissing your own posts as mere opinion.
We are both struggling for truth!
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Bob Barnes

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #67 on: October 22, 2017, 04:29:27 PM »
Moses was not A "Christian", he lived many many years before that term was used to describe followers of Jesus.

Online Cariad

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #68 on: October 22, 2017, 05:53:28 PM »
Sorry @Cariad its taken me so long to get back on this.-I agree with what you say above @Cariad. Nevertheless, it makes no difference whatsoever to my main theme that Acts28 could not possibly have been a change in dispensation.Paul's exposition in Rome on the Kingdom of God is no more important than the many similar dispositions that Paul and the other apostles regularly made on their missionary journeys.The original Greek says they were just leading men of the community in Rome. They were not the Chief Priests.
And again, if the Lord was going to publish a change in his dispensation towards the Jews, it would follow the previous pattern of doing it to the real Chief Priests of the Temple in Jerusalem, and not in a distant colony.
For the exact same reasons you pointed out above -that Jerusalem's judgement against Paul never reached Rome, likewise the judgement from an irrelevant apostate, taken against the Jews in Rome, would certainly not make the news in Jerusalem.

As pointed out previously, the scriptures show that what happened at Rome in Acts28 was little different to what happened in the Gospels and what happened elsewhere in the apostolic period.

Also @Cariad, you cannot dismiss my thoughts as mere opinion, without equally dismissing your own posts as mere opinion.
We are both struggling for truth!
@francis drake

Hello f.d.,

Thank you for your response, though if Bob had not posted in the thread, and thereby drawn my attention to it, I would have missed it, for I had not realised that you had done so.

I am glad that we are in agreement on the content of the first quoted reference, but it would seem that we are in total disagreement on everything else, aren't we?

I am sorry to have annoyed you by referring to what you had said as 'your opinion', but I happen to believe that there is a great deal of evidence to suggest that a dispensational frontier exists in Acts 28, and in relating it, I do not believe that I have been expressing my opinion, but providing evidence from Scripture in the defence of what I believe to be true. Though I guess, that is also what you have been doing. :D

This sounds pompous I know,f.d., but I will not admit to simply expressing my opinion on this, when I happen to know that the evidence of a departure at this point in Israel's history, into a Loammi condition, because of their unbelief, is strong.  Not only because of what history records regarding the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70, but in the change in the ministry of Paul, which followed Acts 28: evidenced in the letters he wrote while in prison, following the revelation of the Mystery, which was given to Him personally while there.(Eph. Phil. Col.1&2 Tim. Tit. Phile.)

If you would like to discuss this subject further, f.d., I would be glad to, but maybe a separate thread would be best.

May I just add, that I have no doubt that you value truth no less than myself.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Online Cariad

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #69 on: October 22, 2017, 06:39:28 PM »
Moses was not A "Christian", he lived many many years before that term was used to describe followers of Jesus.
@Bob Barnes

Hello there,

Francis Drake was merely trying to rattle a few chains and get people thinking. He explains this earlier in the thread.

However though Christ did not appear upon the scene of history until way after Moses death: Moses spoke of Him and looked for His coming, with no less faith, than we do; who look back with gratitude that He came, as God said: and completed the work of God that He had come to do, thus securing our salvation;  see (Deuteronomy 18:15,18,19), where Moses says:-

'The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee
a Prophet from the midst of thee,
.. of thy brethren,
.... like unto me;
unto Him ye shall hearken;'


* For God had said:-

'I will raise them up a Prophet
.. from among their brethren,
.... like unto thee,
and will put My words in His mouth;
and He shall speak unto them all that I shall command Him.
.. And it shall come to pass,
.... that whosoever will not hearken unto My Words
...... which He shall speak in My Name,
........ I will require it of him.'


Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Online francis drake

Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #70 on: October 22, 2017, 08:31:17 PM »
@francis drake
If you would like to discuss this subject further, f.d., I would be glad to, but maybe a separate thread would be best.
May I just add, that I have no doubt that you value truth no less than myself.

Thank you @Cariad.
It may be good to look at it in a separate thread at some stage, however I'm a bit busy at present and am just dipping in and out here when I get a moment.
Attempting to haul up big guns to try and blast your theology out of the water is way too challenging for a tired mind! :-X

I know we both value truth and we know that iron sharpens iron. Even if I don't always agree, your stance invariably makes sense.

Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Bob Barnes

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #71 on: October 22, 2017, 11:14:32 PM »
It seem s to me that you have all forgotten, or don't know exactly who a Christian is. Originally they were Jews who recognised Jesus as the Messiah, and chose to follow him. The term ' Christian' was given to them at Antioch as an insult, but they liked the name and adopted it.