Author Topic: How good a christian do you think Moses was?  (Read 526 times)

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Offline Cariad

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #56 on: September 14, 2017, 05:40:43 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your posts you say in one of them that the olive tree was cut down I don't think this is right remember there are still branches which have not been broken of.

Paul goes on to tell us

. Romans 11

 1  I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

 2  God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, note

 3  Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

 4  But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

 5  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

 6  And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work     


It seams to me that there are Israelites who are saved by grace as we are and they are the branches who have not been broken of so it stands to reason the tree can not be cut down

Love and Peace
Dave

Hi Dave,

You are not happy with what I have said, are you? I understand.

* God has not, 'cast away His People', but they are laid aside in unbelief at present.

* The Olive Tree is a symbol of Israel.  If the Olive Tree survived Acts 28, where is it? It cannot be the nation of Israel, who, though in their own land now, in part; have been, and still are to a degree, scattered throughout the nations. They also still remain in unbelief - nationally. 

* The believing branches were the believing remnant that Isaiah prophesied concerning (Rom.9:27; Rom.11:5). They were also the 'firstfruit': the pledge of a future harvest; and that harvest comes at the end of the age. 

* The remnant, or firstfruit, lost nothing when the Olive Tree of Israel became, 'Loammi' ('not My People'): for they were saved by grace, their ground of blessing is no longer that of Israel, but of Christ their Redeemer.  For them, their Redeemer had come; but for the nation of Israel as a whole, they still await that day when their Redeemer will return again, and they shall repent and acknowledge Him as their Messiah. It is only then that they will be saved, and that will be the time of harvest.(Rom.11:26)

* God, Who in His foreknowledge knew that Israel would not repent, provided for the believers who had relied on drawing on the root and fatness of the Olive Tree, by revealing to Paul, the truth concerning, 'The Mystery', which is recorded in Ephesians 3; that both believing Jew and Gentile were now a unity: equals in Christ Jesus.  That was not the case during the Acts period, for Israel came 'first' in God's purposes: they had priority, because of their spiritual privileges, and God's desire that they should perform their divinely appointed role as priests unto God to the nations.

* The believing gentiles, grafted into the Olive Tree, relied on the blessings of Israel.  But now, with the departure of the Olive Tree, God had changed that, for in Ephesians 3:6, Paul explains, 

"That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body,
 and partakers of His promise in Christ by the gospel:"


* This was very new! The Salvation of God had been sent to the Gentiles (Acts 28:28): they were no longer reliant on the Olive Tree for sustenance; for they were now partaking of His promise in Christ, independent of Israel.  Christ in (or among) them was now their hope of glory.'(Col.1:27)

'To whom God would make known
what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles;
which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:'


Praise God!

* Pray the prayer of Ephesians 1:15-23

In Christ Jesus
Cariad









Offline Rose Anna

Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #57 on: September 15, 2017, 09:01:36 AM »
In thinking of Romans11, where the Olive tree is described as being Israel and there are those who are being grafted in.
I was initially taught that is the Body of Christ. Supported by the jewish roots.

Others have said the Olive tree is solely for Israel. For those born jewish and come to  know Christ. Consequently, they are supported by the jewish roots. That is after the full measure of gentiles have been connected to Him.

It is confusing but looking at other places of  the bible, and asking God may clarify over the course of time.
I'm just saying I'm not sure over that one!

In consideration the tribulation is an example.

For there is a lot of mention of persecution to God's people, when the antichrist comes in particular.

There are a lot of disagreements,  regarding the order of events and what happens first.

 Some back up a pretribulation rapture, referring the Body of Christ to the Ark. Just like the Ark in Noahs time.

These are not my absolute opinions. I'm just seeking the truth.

Yet someone told me their views, regarding a pretribulation rapture of the Body of Christ. That will leave the world in great turmoil.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-9 1
 1 Thessalonians4
Also known as the time of Jacobs trouble. Jeremiah 30:7
The time when the  people born as   jewish,  will become born again as the spiritual Israel.

Therefore there is a blessing for jewish christians and a different blessing for the gentile christians. Yet obviously under the same God, and His same Word and His same Spirit.
Leading to seeing the other view and where it fits.

I do see those in the old testament as worshipping the same God as those in the new testament.
Of course He is the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob .
Therefore can see that God's people can be called both Israel and christians, whether they are jewish or gentile.
Its a label.
To be a christian is a label. Doesn't it mean Christ in you.
Some say they are christian but it doesn't mean they are. Some talk of Jesus but that doesnt mean that is the true Jesus. Matthew 24:5
 2 Corinthians 11:4
To me labels are not what counts, because its the heart and what is genuine and true that is. That is whether the label is correct or incorrect.

Yet God may give them different descriptions to show different blessings and in another way they are meaningful distinctions and not just mere labels.

The people of old and the people of new, worshipping God our Creator, in His Spirit and Word of truth is what counts. Yet God showed their different blessings and uniqueness in being special in different ways. Also needing each other.

Just like the old and new testament go together and complete each other. The new testament fulfills the old testament.

As you see in the relationship the people of old had with God, as the people of new have.

Examples have already been given.
What about David ?
Someone after  God's own heart, who experienced things, where his expression of them actually foretold us the events  of what Jesus would encounter, at the crucifixion.

God through David said fourteen generations, before Christ was born in the flesh, so many things that Jesus fulfilled.

 Here is just an example. If you read all of Psalm22 you will see that Jesus wasn't simply reciting those words. He was saying them spontaneously and the rest of the events fulfilled the rest of the Psalm.

Psalm 22:1 "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?"

Jesus fulfilled this:
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani that is, My God, My God, why have you forsaken me.

The Words of the Psalms are so powerful and they were alive, activated and fulfilled by Jesus. Experienced by David in the old testament and can impact as a sword that is active and living, cutting through the physical world both in old and new testament times.

Offline Cariad

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #58 on: September 16, 2017, 08:28:25 AM »
@Rose Anna

Hello there,

I do thank you for your post.  I have only been able to read it properly this morning, for I had strained my eyes and my head was threatening a migraine attack if I didn't rest them.

You have covered a lot of ground in your post, showing the differing divergent views held not only about the subject of the interpretation of the Olive Tree, but other aspects of Divine Truth.

It was only when I began taking part in Christian forums, some time ago now, that I realised that in the eyes of those listening to my understanding of Scripture, they were putting a label upon me, which I had never wished to adopt: and that I was receiving attack upon the basis of what they perceived me to be, rather than acknowledging the fact that I was simply a Child of my Father, in Christ Jesus, and an heir of His Grace.  The label given to me, was, 'Hyper-Dispensationalist', and I had to look it up online to see what it meant.   
I do believe in the necessity to, 'rightly divide,' the word of truth (2 Tim.2:15), in order to recognise the different administrations of God that the Bible brings to light: and they are clearly defined; therefore should not be a matter of personal conjecture.  In doing so a lot of the causes of misunderstanding, and misinterpretation are seen in their right perspective, and light dawns upon what are considered to be problem passages.

Time for breakfast now, so I wish you a good day, Rose Anna. Davetaff and  francis drake, too, Who have been in recent debate in this thread, and to all members.  May God's perfect will be done in, and through each one of us, for His Name and Glory's sake.  For that is what ultimately matters, isn't it.

With love to you,
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline Rose Anna

Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #59 on: September 16, 2017, 11:45:06 AM »
@Rose Anna

Hello there,

I do thank you for your post.  I have only been able to read it properly this morning, for I had strained my eyes and my head was threatening a migraine attack if I didn't rest them.

You have covered a lot of ground in your post, showing the differing divergent views held not only about the subject of the interpretation of the Olive Tree, but other aspects of Divine Truth.

It was only when I began taking part in Christian forums, some time ago now, that I realised that in the eyes of those listening to my understanding of Scripture, they were putting a label upon me, which I had never wished to adopt: and that I was receiving attack upon the basis of what they perceived me to be, rather than acknowledging the fact that I was simply a Child of my Father, in Christ Jesus, and an heir of His Grace.  The label given to me, was, 'Hyper-Dispensationalist', and I had to look it up online to see what it meant.   
I do believe in the necessity to, 'rightly divide,' the word of truth (2 Tim.2:15), in order to recognise the different administrations of God that the Bible brings to light: and they are clearly defined; therefore should not be a matter of personal conjecture.  In doing so a lot of the causes of misunderstanding, and misinterpretation are seen in their right perspective, and light dawns upon what are considered to be problem passages.

Time for breakfast now, so I wish you a good day, Rose Anna. Davetaff and  francis drake, too, Who have been in recent debate in this thread, and to all members.  May God's perfect will be done in, and through each one of us, for His Name and Glory's sake.  For that is what ultimately matters, isn't it.

With love to you,
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Hello @Cariad.
Hope you feel better soon.

Thank you for this.
The enemy does try to misrepresent the children of God and place  labels, misconceptions and misinterpretations that have no substance and truth in the light of Christ.
If only more christians came into the light of Christ and seeked to look for others needs and not just their own. Within that is the need  to understand others and to be understood.
Its hard enough now being misunderstood by unbelievers, and highly amplified by that also extending to believers. Who unwittingly can attack a christians true intentions, views, personality and identity.
Nevertheless, there is the sense that God knows His children inside out.

In regards to this discussion. Like you I'm not out to win the debate or try to prove a point. Nor out to win the game of chess, which serves no purpose if it has no truth. Like you I'm seeking the truth and the truth is what sets us free!

A lot of the views that fit Israel as the Olive tree make sense and fitting other places of the bible.
Although I am open to be corrected should that not be the truth.

Offline davetaff

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #60 on: September 16, 2017, 02:32:48 PM »
@Rose Anna

Hello there,

I do thank you for your post.  I have only been able to read it properly this morning, for I had strained my eyes and my head was threatening a migraine attack if I didn't rest them.

You have covered a lot of ground in your post, showing the differing divergent views held not only about the subject of the interpretation of the Olive Tree, but other aspects of Divine Truth.

It was only when I began taking part in Christian forums, some time ago now, that I realised that in the eyes of those listening to my understanding of Scripture, they were putting a label upon me, which I had never wished to adopt: and that I was receiving attack upon the basis of what they perceived me to be, rather than acknowledging the fact that I was simply a Child of my Father, in Christ Jesus, and an heir of His Grace.  The label given to me, was, 'Hyper-Dispensationalist', and I had to look it up online to see what it meant.   
I do believe in the necessity to, 'rightly divide,' the word of truth (2 Tim.2:15), in order to recognise the different administrations of God that the Bible brings to light: and they are clearly defined; therefore should not be a matter of personal conjecture.  In doing so a lot of the causes of misunderstanding, and misinterpretation are seen in their right perspective, and light dawns upon what are considered to be problem passages.

Time for breakfast now, so I wish you a good day, Rose Anna. Davetaff and  francis drake, too, Who have been in recent debate in this thread, and to all members.  May God's perfect will be done in, and through each one of us, for His Name and Glory's sake.  For that is what ultimately matters, isn't it.

With love to you,
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Hi Chris
I think you have brought up some interesting points you say you have been called a Hyper Dispensationalist and I have been call a heretic a blasphemer and what I say is Poppycock and rubbish not that it matters to me what people say Its what the lord thinks that counts.

1 Corinthians 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.     


The motives of the Heart this is what God looks at what our motives are do we say what we say and do what we do to glorify God then I think it will be acceptable to him.

The point I am trying to make is we have all arrived at the cross of Christ albeit by different routs but this is the most important thing of all maybe God has designed the scripture that way for as many as possible to be led to the cross.

I think as members of Christs body we should be able to talk and debate without name calling but with love.

1 Peter 4:8
Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.   


Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Cariad

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #61 on: September 16, 2017, 06:24:33 PM »
@davetaff @Rose Anna

Thank you, both,

I have been called a 'Heretic' too, Dave: and encountered some pretty brutal characters online; but it doesn't hurt me now. However, I can't say that it doesn't disturb me when it happens, because it does.  We are only human.

I don't mind being disagreed with, as long as the one doing so has at least considered what I have said, and then having taken it to the Word of God for confirmation, or rejection, come back with the reason why they disagree, on a Scriptural basis.  At least then, I can turn to the Scriptures provided and do my own confirmation or rejection.

With love to you both,
In Christ Jesus
Cariad


Offline Rose Anna

Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #62 on: September 17, 2017, 12:33:51 PM »
Coming onto the websites like this have taught me a lot. They broaden our understanding and I like people who think outside of the box, challenging the limitations taught and presented in the structured churches.

I think that is what God wants and for our understanding of truth to be expanded not restricted.
Through our journey in the light of Christ.

Offline francis drake

Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #63 on: September 17, 2017, 06:11:08 PM »

It is possible that there will be nobody here who will agree with me in this regard.  For, as a member of the Body of Christ, I am not a part of the Olive tree of Israel.  That calling ended with the laying aside temporarily of Israel in unbelief at the end of the Acts period.  The Olive tree therefore is no longer there to be grafted into, it is in abeyance along with the new covenant, and it's blessings, until the redemption of Israel at the end of the age.

The Church which is His Body, is a unity, made up of believers, both Jew and Gentile, who are joined into one body, in Christ, independent of Israel.  They have a unique hope, and their blessings are all spiritual, which will be enjoyed in a unique sphere, in resurrection.  This is the subject of the epistles of Paul written from prison, following the revelation given to him by God, after Israel's (temporary) laying aside in unbelief in Acts 28.  This revelation was formerly hidden in God, and was not the subject of Paul's earlier epistles, the gospels, or of the Old Testament Scriptures.

This is observable, in the epistles of Eph. Phil, Col, 1&2 Tim, and Titus, and rests on the doctrinal basis of Romans, especially the inner portion (Rom.5:12-8:39) which teaches us of our identification with Christ in His death, burial, quickening and resurrection.  However, it is in Ephesians that we are taught of our identification with Christ, in His ascension to God's right hand.


Hi Cariad, 
I've held back from responding to your posts because,-
a). Dave seemed to be doing so well, and
b). I wanted time to think, and approach the dispute from a different direction.

I believe the idea that Paul statement in Acts28 marked an official turning point in Israel's destiny is completely erroneous.
Acts29v28Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. 29And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

The above words were not spoken to Israel as a whole, but to an isolated group of Jews in Rome who had little or no connection with the Jewish leadership in Jerusalem. The preceding verses to Paul's statement (see bellow) make this fact very clear.

Acts28v21And they said unto him, We neither received letters out of Judaea concerning thee, neither any of the brethren that came shewed or spake any harm of thee. 22But we desire to hear of thee what thou thinkest: for as concerning this sect, we know that every where it is spoken against.

Here we can see that the Jews were already aware of "this sect", but had no communications with the Jewish leadership about it.
Rome was the centre of paganism for the empire and this new sect would be counted by outsiders as just another to add the the pantheon. That the Jews knew nothing other than it was "spoken against" tells us that it could not have been operating amongst the Jews, but amongst the gentiles!
ie. When Paul left the Jews to go to the Gentiles, he was not starting something fresh and unknown. In fact others had beat him to it!

Conclusion.-
The decision that Paul gave against a peripheral synagogue in Rome, cannot possibly be used as judgement against the rest of the Jewish or Israelite  world.

I've listed several verses below where statements similar to Acts28 are made, where no one rightly dividing the word would claim any meaning beyond what the context states, ie. that locality, and that circumstance only.

Jesus sends the twelve apostles out.-
Matt10v
5These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: ?Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, ................
............14And if anyone will not welcome you or heed your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.?

Did the above warning apply to the whole of Israel? Obviously not!

Jesus then sends the seventy out.-
Luke10v
1Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come. ....
................10?But whatever city you enter and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say, 11?Even the dust of your city which clings to our feet we wipe off in protest against you; yet be sure of this, that the kingdom of God has come near.?

Did the above warning apply to the whole of Israel? Certainly not!

Paul and Barnabas at Antioch.-
Acts13v50The Jews, however, incited the religious women of prominence and the leading men of the city. They stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas and drove them out of their district. 51So they shook the dust off their feet in protest against them and went to Iconium. 
Did Paul's shaking the dust off apply to the whole of Israel, or just to Antioch?

Paul in Corinth.  
Acts18v5But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul began devoting himself completely to the word, solemnly testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ. 6But when they resisted and blasphemed, he shook out his garments and said to them, ?Your blood be on your own heads! I am clean. From now on I will go to the Gentiles.?
Did Paul's shaking the dust off apply to the whole of Israel? No, just Corinth.

Paul in Rome.-
Acts28v28Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. 29And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

Did Paul's rejection of the Jews in Rome imply Israel's Olive Tree was cut down?
Certainly not!


If the Lord was passing judgement on Israel, it would be done in the centre of Judaism, ie. Jerusalem, and it would have been made to the Jewish leadership, ie. the priesthood.


Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)