Author Topic: How good a christian do you think Moses was?  (Read 528 times)

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Offline Cariad

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #48 on: September 12, 2017, 07:00:40 PM »
Hi Chris you said

Why do you think the calling ended when Israel was laid aside on what scripture do you base that statement.
I believe the olive tree represents Christ so the olive tree is always there but Israel do not have access to it as you say but it dose not say we can not be grafted in to it.
when Paul wrote Rom 11:17 he was writing to those in Rome who were predominantly gentiles I would think so I think being able to be grafted in to the olive tree has been  possible for last 2000 years its only Israel who have been cut of.
thinking about it its the same story in Genesis after the fall access to the tree of life was denied Adam ( Israel ) 

Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23  Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24  So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.     


It was only the man Adam who was denied access.

I Have to go now but hope answer the rest of your post later.

Love and Peace
Dave     
@davetaff

Hello there,

Romans 11, tells us of the Olive Tree: and a reading of it will show that Israel is the subject of the chapter as a whole and that the Olive tree is an illustration of it.

* Paul's one purpose in using this figure, was to seek to show by the Olive tree, how the Lord had used the entry of Gentile believers, starting with Cornelius, into the Kingdom, in order, if it were possible, to 'provoke', the nation of Israel  'to emulation'.

* In Judges 9:1-15, the Olive, the Fig and the Vine, stand  for different aspects of Israel's privileges. Yet it is Jeremiah 11:16, which says, ...

'The Lord called thy name,
A green Olive tree,
fair, and of goodly fruit ... ...
the branches of it are broken'

(Jer. 11:16)

... that Paul uses in Romans 11.  Also, God Himself, through the prophet Jeremiah, interprets the symbol of the Olive Tree as referring to  Israel, in Jeremiah 12:17,

'But if they will not obey,
I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation,
saith the LORD.'


* Paul uses this figure, and refers also to Jer. 31:31 in Rom.11:27, where the Olive tree is complete.

* The branches that were broken were the unbelieving among Israel, the branches that remained were the believing remnant of Israel. Gentiles were grafted in to take the place of the unbelieving of Israel who had been broken off.

* The Olive Tree is symbolic of Israel, Dave, not of our Lord Jesus Christ.

* You asked me why I believe that the Olive Tree calling ended at the point at which Israel was laid aside in unbelief at Acts 28.  Well, Dave, only while Israel were still, 'My People', before God, could Gentiles be grafted in: that ceased to be in Acts 28; when Israel became, 'lo-ammi' ('not My People').  The Olive Tree therefore, of Israel, was no longer there to be grafted into.

* God assures us that the unbelieving branches will be grafted in again, this will take place when Israel repents, and Is restored as a nation before God: when they cease to be, 'Loammi', 'Not my People', and are once more the People of God (Hosea 1:10; Rom.9:25,26), then 'all Israel shall be saved'.(Rom.11:26/Isaiah 59:20)

* An examination of the text of Romans 11, and comparison with other such passages, relative to this, will provide ample evidence to show, ( by the nature of the Gentiles being grafted in for example, in Acts 10, in comparison with that of the Gentiles described in Ephesians ), that the grafting in of the Gentile into the Kingdom, is quite different to what is experienced by believers in the days following Acts 28.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline francis drake

Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #49 on: September 12, 2017, 07:24:24 PM »
It is possible that there will be nobody here who will agree with me in this regard.  For, as a member of the Body of Christ, I am not a part of the Olive tree of Israel. 
If you are not part of the Olive Tree @Cariad, then you are in serious trouble! But even if you disagree, I still think you're an olive!!
Quote
That calling ended with the laying aside temporarily of Israel in unbelief at the end of the Acts period.  The Olive tree therefore is no longer there to be grafted into, it is in abeyance along with the new covenant, and it's blessings, until the redemption of Israel at the end of the age.
Nope, Paul makes it clear that the Gentiles have been grafted into that olive alongside the natural branches.
Rom11v17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
I think that's pretty clear, Paul telling the Romans that they had been grafted alongside Israelite believers.
Certainly any Israelite branches that are unbelieving will have been broken off, and the same applies to unbelieving gentile branches..
There is no scriptural indication that the Olive Tree ceased its existence.
Quote
The Church which is His Body, is a unity, made up of believers, both Jew and Gentile, who are joined into one body, in Christ, independant of Israel.  They have a unique hope, and their blessings are all spiritual,
Nope Cariad. Our blessings are earthly as well as spiritual, just as it was with Israel. If not, it makes no sense to pray, "Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven"
Quote
which will be enjoyed in a unique sphere, in resurrection.  This is the subject of the epistles of Paul written from prison, following the revelation given to him by God, after Israel's (temporary) laying aside in unbelief in Acts 28.  This revelation was formerly hidden in God, and was not the subject of Paul's earlier epistles, the gospels, or of the Old Testament Scriptures.
Acts 28 was a statement to the Jews alone at the place he was preaching in Rome. It wasn't a judgement against Jews elsewhere, or the remaining eleven tribes of Israelites scattered abroad.
In fact it was a fairly regular thing for the apostles to shake the dust of their feet when their message was rejected.
Acts13v51So they shook the dust off their feet as a warning to them and went to Iconium.

Acts18v6But when they opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."



Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Cariad

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #50 on: September 12, 2017, 10:08:14 PM »
If you are not part of the Olive Tree @Cariad, then you are in serious trouble! But even if you disagree, I still think you're an olive!!Nope, Paul makes it clear that the Gentiles have been grafted into that olive alongside the natural branches.
Rom11v17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
I think that's pretty clear, Paul telling the Romans that they had been grafted alongside Israelite believers.
Certainly any Israelite branches that are unbelieving will have been broken off, and the same applies to unbelieving gentile branches..
There is no scriptural indication that the Olive Tree ceased its existence.Nope Cariad. Our blessings are earthly as well as spiritual, just as it was with Israel. If not, it makes no sense to pray, "Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven"
Acts 28 was a statement to the Jews alone at the place he was preaching in Rome. It wasn't a judgement against Jews elsewhere, or the remaining eleven tribes of Israelites scattered abroad.
In fact it was a fairly regular thing for the apostles to shake the dust of their feet when their message was rejected.
Acts13v51So they shook the dust off their feet as a warning to them and went to Iconium.

Acts18v6But when they opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."


Hi @francis drake ,

I acknowledge your response, and will reply tomorrow, God willing.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #51 on: September 13, 2017, 02:25:03 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your replies I would like to take up the point about the olive tree if I may.

Rom 11:17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
   

We can agree that the olive tree is Israel I don't think that's in dispute but what is the root and fatness of the olive tree surely this has to be Christ who created Israel he is the foundation of Israel.
From the root comes all the goodness which permeates the whole tree and if you will permit me to say this is the tree of life and we who are grafted in also partake of the root and the fatness which is Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 11:18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
   


The root that nourished the Israelites also nourishes us that root is Christ.

Love and Peace
Dave   

Offline francis drake

Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #52 on: September 13, 2017, 03:16:26 PM »
Rom 11:17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
   

We can agree that the olive tree is Israel I don't think that's in dispute but what is the root and fatness of the olive tree surely this has to be Christ who created Israel he is the foundation of Israel.
From the root comes all the goodness which permeates the whole tree and if you will permit me to say this is the tree of life and we who are grafted in also partake of the root and the fatness which is Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 11:18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
   


The root that nourished the Israelites also nourishes us that root is Christ.

Stop agreeing with me @Dave, you are ruining my reputation!
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Cariad

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #53 on: September 13, 2017, 03:19:59 PM »
Quote
Quote
from: Cariad on September 11, 2017, 11:15:39 PM
It is possible that there will be nobody here who will agree with me in this regard.  For, as a member of the Body of Christ, I am not a part of the Olive tree of Israel.

If you are not part of the Olive Tree @Cariad, then you are in serious trouble! But even if you disagree, I still think you're an olive!!
* Hello @francis drake,

Ha! So you think I am an olive, do you, fd?   :)

* If I had been a believer during the Acts period, after Acts 10 and the conversion of Cornelius: as a gentile believer, I would have been grafted into The Olive Tree of Israel.  I would have enjoyed the blessings of Abraham by drawing on the root and fatness of the Olive tree (Rom. 11:17), along with the believing remnant of Israel. The hope of Israel was what I would have shared. (Romans 15:12,13), along with the fulfilment of Isaiah 11 and Jeremiah 31.

'And again he saith, Rejoice, ye Gentiles, with His people.
And again, Praise the Lord, all ye Gentiles; and laud him, all ye people.
And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse,
and He that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles;
in Him shall the Gentiles trust.'

(Rom 15:10-12)

* Though, of course, the believing remnant also had the hope of Abraham, which was the New Jerusalem.

* Romans was written before Acts 28, so no mention is made of what would happen to the Olive Tree, if the attempt to provoke it into growth by the grafting in of believing gentiles should fail. It was effectively cut down, leaving it's roots in the ground to sprout again, when Israel failed to repent and acknowledge the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah, and Israel became Loammi ('not My People').  Israel was scattered throughout the nations, their temple gone.
Quote
francis drake: 
Quote
Cariad:
That calling ended with the laying aside temporarily of Israel in unbelief at the end of the Acts period.  The Olive tree therefore is no longer there to be grafted into, it is in abeyance along with the new covenant, and it's blessings, until the redemption of Israel at the end of the age.
Nope, Paul makes it clear that the Gentiles have been grafted into that olive alongside the natural branches.
Rom11v17But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
I think that's pretty clear, Paul telling the Romans that they had been grafted alongside Israelite believers.
Certainly any Israelite branches that are unbelieving will have been broken off, and the same applies to unbelieving gentile branches..
There is no scriptural indication that the Olive Tree ceased its existence.
* I think what I said in answer to the previous quote, covers this, FD.
Quote
francis drake:
Quote
Cariad:
The Church which is His Body, is a unity, made up of believers, both Jew and Gentile, who are joined into one body, in Christ, independant of Israel.  They have a unique hope, and their blessings are all spiritual,
Nope Cariad. Our blessings are earthly as well as spiritual, just as it was with Israel. If not, it makes no sense to pray, "Thy kingdom come on earth as it is in heaven"
* What are our earthly blessings, fd? Israel's blessings (and curses) were of basket and store(Deut.28:5,17)
* The Lord's prayer was directed to the Lord's disciples whose ministry was limited to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. The hope of the kingdom coming was their hope.
Quote
francis drake:
Quote
Cariad] ... which will be enjoyed in a unique sphere, in resurrection.  This is the subject of the epistles of Paul written from prison, following the revelation given to him by God, after Israel's (temporary) laying aside in unbelief in Acts 28.  This revelation was formerly hidden in God, and was not the subject of Paul's earlier epistles, the gospels, or of the Old Testament Scriptures.
Acts 28 was a statement to the Jews alone at the place he was preaching in Rome. It wasn't a judgement against Jews elsewhere, or the remaining eleven tribes of Israelites scattered abroad.
In fact it was a fairly regular thing for the apostles to shake the dust of their feet when their message was rejected.
Acts13v51So they shook the dust off their feet as a warning to them and went to Iconium.

Acts18v6But when they opposed Paul and became abusive, he shook out his clothes in protest and said to them, "Your blood be on your own heads! I am innocent of it. From now on I will go to the Gentiles."
* Subsequent events in the history of Israel do not substantiate this, fd.   Acts 28 was very much for the nation, as the quotation from Isaiah 6, shows.

'And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed,
after that Paul had spoken one word,
"Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Saying, Go unto this people, and say,
Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand;
and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
For the heart of this people is waxed gross,
and their ears are dull of hearing,
and their eyes have they closed;
lest they should see with their eyes,
and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart,
and should be converted, and I should heal them."
Be it known therefore unto you,
that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles,
and that they will hear it
.'

(Act 28:25-28) 

* Door closed, after forty years of waiting for their repentance! Opportunity gone! Salvation is sent to the Gentiles, and the revelation concerning the administration of God which would heal and bind up the wounds caused by this to the believing community, was made known unto Paul, as 'The Lord's Prisoner', and made known by Him. The Church which is the Body of Christ, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all', was born! (see Eph. Phil. Col. 1&2 Tim. and Titus).

Praise God!

Thank you, fd,
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline Cariad

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #54 on: September 13, 2017, 03:59:44 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your replies I would like to take up the point about the olive tree if I may.

Rom 11:17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
   

We can agree that the olive tree is Israel I don't think that's in dispute but what is the root and fatness of the olive tree surely this has to be Christ who created Israel he is the foundation of Israel.
From the root comes all the goodness which permeates the whole tree and if you will permit me to say this is the tree of life and we who are grafted in also partake of the root and the fatness which is Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom 11:18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
   


The root that nourished the Israelites also nourishes us that root is Christ.

Love and Peace
Dave
@davetaff

Thank you for responding to my post, Dave.  :D

* I am glad that we agree, that The Olive Tree is symbolic of Israel itself.
* The root and the fatness of the Olive Tree belongs to Israel, but what does it represent?

* It cannot be just salvation or justification by faith for, no one is justified by his works or by being joined with another nation, and cannot be 'cut off' from this; for Romans 8 stresses that such separation is impossible (Rom. 8:35-39). 

* Actually, Paul has already described in detail what the 'root and fatness of the olive tree' represents.  This he gives at the opening of this section of the epistle in Romans 9:3-5, which we looked at in our Study on Romans, recently, Dave.

'For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren,
my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites;
to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,
and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came,
Who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.'

(Rom 9:3-5) 

* He lists the tremendous national blessings that God had bestowed on Israel in His plan for the establishment of His kingdom on earth.  It gave them a unique position over the nations, so much so that Psalm 147:20 asserts that God had not dealt so with any nation in bestowing on them such privileges and blessings: relating to adoption (the position of the heir), the glory of God, the many covenants within which God's purpose was so clearly revealed, the giving and guidance of the law, the great privilege of service, the many vital promises relating to the will of God for them, and then the greatest Gift of all, their Messiah, Saviour and King, the Lord Jesus Christ.

* These were the tremendous and unique blessings which God had showered on Israel, concerning which the Old Testament is so full.  It was these great blessings into which the Gentile believer during the Acts period, (following Acts 10) was grafted into, to share; and it was from these that he could be 'cut off' if he acted in a high-handed way like most of Israel had done (Rom.11:18-24).

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Our Lord and Head.
Cariad









Offline davetaff

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #55 on: September 14, 2017, 11:33:58 AM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your posts you say in one of them that the olive tree was cut down I don't think this is right remember there are still branches which have not been broken of.

Paul goes on to tell us

. Romans 11

 1  I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

 2  God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, note

 3  Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.

 4  But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

 5  Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

 6  And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work     


It seams to me that there are Israelites who are saved by grace as we are and they are the branches who have not been broken of so it stands to reason the tree can not be cut down

Love and Peace
Dave