Author Topic: How good a christian do you think Moses was?  (Read 523 times)

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Offline Cariad

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2017, 11:50:22 AM »
Hi @Cariad, the subject heading was a bit tongue in cheek just to stir things up a little. However I disagree that it will lead to error. In fact it is my intention to see a proper examination of the subject and to challenge some wrongly held views.

It is only the Greek language and tradition that makes us believe that the word Christian belongs to one dispensation.
If we take the view that Christians are followers of Christ, then as a follower of Christ, why exclude Moses?

I am sure you would agree that Christ was in the world before Jesus made an appearance?

John1v1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shines in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

The living Word/Logos shines as light in our darkness just as it did with Moses. It alone is the source of our eternal life and new birth, and that is true in the OT or NT.
The only way anyone comprehends that light is if they respond to the Spirit speaking in their hearts. It is listening and responding to the Spirit of God that defines a Christian, not a correct theology of the cross.

Thank you @francis drake,

I understand.

* Looking at the term, Christian, which was first given to identify the disciples in Antioch (Acts 11:26), and was in common use by the time Festus spoke to Paul in Acts 26:28.  It's meaning is made clear in 1 Peter 4:16,17: those so described were 'of the household of God': having been 'obedient to the gospel of God' concerning His Son (Rom.1:3); by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord. 

* This gospel was also the subject of the Old Testament Prophets (Rom.1:2): and the object of Genesis 3:14,15.  Moses himself was a prophet, and he wrote the first five books of the Old Testament by the inspiration of God. Yet, although the gospel of God concerning His Son was the subject of the Old Testament Scriptures, it was not understood until revealed to the apostles and prophets of the New Testament (Eph. 3:5).

* Though I understand that your use of the subject heading was lighthearted, and intended to promote debate on this subject, I still think that Moses cannot be linked with the believer of the gospels, the Acts, or the present day, without losing something of the distinctions of calling, hope and inheritance, which differ in relation to each.

Just thoughts.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad






Offline francis drake

Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #41 on: September 10, 2017, 08:58:53 PM »
Thank you @francis drake,

I understand.

* Looking at the term, Christian, which was first given to identify the disciples in Antioch (Acts 11:26), and was in common use by the time Festus spoke to Paul in Acts 26:28.  It's meaning is made clear in 1 Peter 4:16,17: those so described were 'of the household of God'
Moses was most certainly of the household of God!
Quote
:[/i][/color] having been 'obedient to the gospel of God' concerning His Son (Rom.1:3); by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord. 
Moses was clearly stated as believing in Christ, hearing and following Him!
Quote
* This gospel was also the subject of the Old Testament Prophets (Rom.1:2): and the object of Genesis 3:14,15.  Moses himself was a prophet, and he wrote the first five books of the Old Testament by the inspiration of God. Yet, although the gospel of God concerning His Son was the subject of the Old Testament Scriptures, it was not understood until revealed to the apostles and prophets of the New Testament (Eph. 3:5).
That the death and resurrection of Jesus was not understood by the patriarchs is clear, but that doesn't make them any the less.
In my experience, most Christians don't ever really grasp the significance of the cross. It took me many years after being born again before I understood the why and wherefore of it.
Quote
* Though I understand that your use of the subject heading was lighthearted, and intended to promote debate on this subject, I still think that Moses cannot be linked with the believer of the gospels, the Acts, or the present day, without losing something of the distinctions of calling, hope and inheritance, which differ in relation to each.
@Cariad, it would be helpful if you could enlarge on this last statement as to why Moses can't be linked to the gospel believers when the book of Hebrews directly does that. (Heb11 onwards)

And why does Paul call us the sons of Abraham?
Gal3v6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Cariad

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #42 on: September 10, 2017, 11:55:54 PM »
it would be helpful if you could enlarge on this last statement as to why Moses can't be linked to the gospel believers when the book of Hebrews directly does that. (Heb11 onwards)

And why does Paul call us the sons of Abraham?
Gal3v6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. 8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. 9So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Hello @francis drake ,

Moses and Abraham were men of faith, and as you have shown, Abraham is used as an example of one to whom righteousness was imputed, or reckoned, on the basis that He believed God: and likewise the righteousness of God is imputed to us on the same basis, because we have believed the gospel concerning His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. In that respect the believers of the Acts period could be spoken of as, 'children of Abraham', and those that be of faith were blessed with faithful Abraham.

Regarding Moses, I said that linking Moses with believers of the gospel period, that is, during the earthly ministry of our Lord, or with the believers of the period covered by the book of Acts, or with believers during the period following the revelation of the mystery to Paul, which resulted in the writing of Eph. Phil. Col. 2 Tim and Titus, only serves to confuse their individual callings, their hope and inheritance, in Christ Jesus.

That is all I can say at the moment.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad


Offline francis drake

Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2017, 01:52:15 PM »
Regarding Moses, I said that linking Moses with believers of the gospel period, that is, during the earthly ministry of our Lord, or with the believers of the period covered by the book of Acts, or with believers during the period following the revelation of the mystery to Paul, which resulted in the writing of Eph. Phil. Col. 2 Tim and Titus, only serves to confuse their individual callings, their hope and inheritance, in Christ Jesus.
You need to help me here @Cariad as I still can't see why you take that view, especially given that scripture makes that link.

Of course, whether we are pre flood, pre Moses, OT or NT believers, we all have an individual and personal calling before God.

However our "Christian" inheritance today, is by being counted as joined to those who already possessed that inheritance by an earlier covenant with Abraham.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #44 on: September 11, 2017, 02:50:53 PM »
Hi
Jest had a thought not always a good thing :undecided: but may be there is another way of looking at this Paul tells us.


Rom 11:17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
   


Only some of the branches are broken of I take it that means those who have rejected Christ and this means there are still those who are in the tree of life I would think this would include Moses and Abraham and the like.

What is interesting is we are grafted into Israel's tree so its not a case of Moses being a Christian but us becoming an Israelite maybe thats what Paul meant when he says.

Rom 9:6  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
   


Love and Peace
Dave

Offline francis drake

Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #45 on: September 11, 2017, 03:42:20 PM »
Hi
Jest had a thought not always a good thing :undecided: but may be there is another way of looking at this Paul tells us.


Rom 11:17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
   


Only some of the branches are broken of I take it that means those who have rejected Christ and this means there are still those who are in the tree of life I would think this would include Moses and Abraham and the like.

What is interesting is we are grafted into Israel's tree so its not a case of Moses being a Christian but us becoming an Israelite maybe thats what Paul meant when he says.

Rom 9:6  Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
   


Love and Peace
Dave
Bingo!
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Cariad

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #46 on: September 11, 2017, 11:15:39 PM »
You need to help me here @Cariad as I still can't see why you take that view, especially given that scripture makes that link.

Of course, whether we are pre flood, pre Moses, OT or NT believers, we all have an individual and personal calling before God.

However our "Christian" inheritance today, is by being counted as joined to those who already possessed that inheritance by an earlier covenant with Abraham.

Hello @francis drake,

Looking at your previous post, I am glad to see that you and Dave have found common ground, upon which you can agree.  :D  However I find myself at odds with both of you, which, considering the subject, I am not surprised about.

It is possible that there will be nobody here who will agree with me in this regard.  For, as a member of the Body of Christ, I am not a part of the Olive tree of Israel.  That calling ended with the laying aside temporarily of Israel in unbelief at the end of the Acts period.  The Olive tree therefore is no longer there to be grafted into, it is in abeyance along with the new covenant, and it's blessings, until the redemption of Israel at the end of the age.

The Church which is His Body, is a unity, made up of believers, both Jew and Gentile, who are joined into one body, in Christ, independant of Israel.  They have a unique hope, and their blessings are all spiritual, which will be enjoyed in a unique sphere, in resurrection.  This is the subject of the epistles of Paul written from prison, following the revelation given to him by God, after Israel's (temporary) laying aside in unbelief in Acts 28.  This revelation was formerly hidden in God, and was not the subject of Paul's earlier epistles, the gospels, or of the Old Testament Scriptures.

This is observable, in the epistles of Eph. Phil, Col, 1&2 Tim, and Titus, and rests on the doctrinal basis of Romans, especially the inner portion (Rom.5:12-8:39) which teaches us of our identification with Christ in His death, burial, quickening and resurrection.  However, it is in Ephesians that we are taught of our identification with Christ, in His ascension to God's right hand.

Praise God!

This has been typed on a Kindle, hence few Scripture references have been given, except for a pointer to the content of those wonderful prison epistles of Paul, which contain this glorious truth regarding the mystery made known to Paul.(Eph.3:6; Col.1:26,27)

In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Cariad


Offline davetaff

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #47 on: September 12, 2017, 05:16:59 PM »
Hi Chris you said

Quote
It is possible that there will be nobody here who will agree with me in this regard.  For, as a member of the Body of Christ, I am not a part of the Olive tree of Israel.  That calling ended with the laying aside temporarily of Israel in unbelief at the end of the Acts period.  The Olive tree therefore is no longer there to be grafted into, it is in abeyance along with the new covenant, and it's blessings, until the redemption of Israel at the end of the age.
     

Why do you think the calling ended when Israel was laid aside on what scripture do you base that statement.
I believe the olive tree represents Christ so the olive tree is always there but Israel do not have access to it as you say but it dose not say we can not be grafted in to it.
when Paul wrote Rom 11:17 he was writing to those in Rome who were predominantly gentiles I would think so I think being able to be grafted in to the olive tree has been  possible for last 2000 years its only Israel who have been cut of.
thinking about it its the same story in Genesis after the fall access to the tree of life was denied Adam ( Israel ) 

Gen 3:22  And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Gen 3:23  Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24  So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.     


It was only the man Adam who was denied access.

I Have to go now but hope answer the rest of your post later.

Love and Peace
Dave