Author Topic: How good a christian do you think Moses was?  (Read 532 times)

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Offline francis drake

Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2017, 09:38:09 PM »
Hi Frances
We are reborn through baptism
No Dave, baptism is a sign that we have become reborn. Read the sequence in this story of Cornelius.-
Acts10v1At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. 2He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. 3One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, ?Cornelius!?
4Cornelius stared at him in fear. ?What is it, Lord?? he asked.
The angel answered, ?Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a memorial offering before God.


In the above verses, we can see that according to God, Cornelius was a believer who loved and served Him.
The Lord challenges Peter to go and see Cornelius. Peter is reluctant because his tradition cannot contemplate that God would have anything to do with the filthy gentiles! Nevertheless he obediently goes, and gets the shock of his life. Like much of the church, much of Peter's tradition is baseless nonsense.

Acts10v44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

We can see that the Holy Spirit is poured out on Cornelius and his people, prior to water baptism.

Then Peter said, 47?Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.? 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.

Following, not before, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, Peter baptised them in water as a confirmatory sign that they had been spiritually washed by the Lord.
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.    5  For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence 
There you go again Dave, your scripture says nothing of the sort. You are just quoting another baseless church tradition.
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Here our Lord is speaking of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost before Pentecost no one had received the Holy Spirit except our Lord at his baptism.
Plenty of people had received the Holy Spirit before Pentecost, including.-
Jn20v22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

There is a great difference between being born from above by the spirit of God, and subsequently being filled with the Holy Spirit and power, as at Pentecost.
I was born again as a child, many years later I found out about, and was filled with the Holy Spirit and speaking in tongues etc. like at Pentecost.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Online davetaff

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2017, 02:42:35 PM »
Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply I have jest read through that section of Acts and get a different meaning.
If I understand it correctly Cornelius was following the Jewish OT laws he had not heard the Gospel everything he was doing was contained in the OT.

what baptism are we talking about here I'm talking about the baptism of the holy Spirit and Paul tells us how we receive it.

Eph 5:26  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
   


It is the word of God which is the water of Baptism especially the gospel and this is what happened to Cornelius when peter preached the good news to him and he believed he received the Holy Spirit this is the true Baptism.

I don't think the water baptism that's practiced in the churches is of much benefit unless the persons heart is right with God.

Love and Peace
Dave   


 

Offline francis drake

Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2017, 04:07:53 PM »
Hi Frances
Thank you for your reply I have jest read through that section of Acts and get a different meaning.
If I understand it correctly Cornelius was following the Jewish OT laws he had not heard the Gospel everything he was doing was contained in the OT.
Now Dave, you are really making stuff up again. You know perfectly well that there is absolutely nothing in the story of Cornelius that indicates he was following Jewish law!
If he was in any way a proselyte of the Jews, he would never have been considered unclean by Peter or the other disciples who protested in Jerusalem.
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what baptism are we talking about here I'm talking about the baptism of the holy Spirit and Paul tells us how we receive it.

Eph 5:26  That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
   


It is the word of God which is the water of Baptism especially the gospel and this is what happened to Cornelius when peter preached the good news to him and he believed he received the Holy Spirit this is the true Baptism.
Cornelius certainly received the Holy Spirit when Peter visited, but the baptism Peter talks about is water.
Acts10v47?Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.?
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I don't think the water baptism that's practiced in the churches is of much benefit unless the persons heart is right with God.
I agree with the last statement, but again water baptism, whether in church or a river, is merely a sign after the event. In itself, it doesn't get anyone born again does it?

Going back to my original intention. Cornelius was already born again before Peter visited. The righteous description given of the man at the beginning of Acts10, plus the statement of the angel, cannot refer to an unbeliever.
Acts10v2A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, who gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God always.

And again, the rebuke to Peter shows God's heart towards Cornelius.
Acts10v15And the voice spoke unto him again the second time, What God has cleansed, do not call common.
If Cornelius had been cleansed by God, it can only be because of the blood of Christ.

Cornelius's status before God is then clearly declared by Peter.
Acts10v34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35But in every nation he that fears him, and works righteousness, is accepted with him.


ie. ...he that fears him.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Online davetaff

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #35 on: September 07, 2017, 11:47:33 AM »
Hi France you said

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. Now Dave, you are really making stuff up again. You know perfectly well that there is absolutely nothing in the story of Cornelius that indicates he was following Jewish law!
If he was in any way a proselyte of the Jews, he would never have been considered unclean by Peter or the other disciples who protested in Jerusalem     

Yes you are right it dose not say he followed the Jewish traditions on the other hand it dose not say he believed or knew anything about Christ so we are both making assumptions are we not.

All the things Cornelius did are found in the law as given to the Jews.
Peter went to Cornelius as a direct command from Christ are you saying he could have refused to go I don't think so.

The whole point of this was Christ showing Peter that the Gospel was for everyone the Jew and the gentiles.

And when Peter preached the Gospel to Cornelius he received the Holy Spirit and without the Spirit we cannot be reborn into the body of Christ.

To be reborn is to die to self and to be reborn into the body of Christ and this can only happen through faith in Jesus and to have faith in him we have to have the good news preached to us.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline francis drake

Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #36 on: September 07, 2017, 04:15:56 PM »
Yes you are right it dose not say he followed the Jewish traditions on the other hand it dose not say he believed or knew anything about Christ so we are both making assumptions are we not.
Explain this Dave,-
Heb11v24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh?s daughter, 25choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.
Jesus Christ was born over 1200 years after Moses died. How could Moses "consider the reproach of Christ" when Christ was not yet born".
1Cor10v4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
Again, how could Christ have accompanied the Israelites when he was not yet born?

Knowing Christ has nothing to do with being taught about the death and resurrection of Jesus. Christ is the creator God written about throughout the bible.
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All the things Cornelius did are found in the law as given to the Jews.
There is no evidence anywhere that Cornelius was following Jewish law or custom. Had that been the case, he would have been considered a proselyte, and not unclean by Peter.

Dave, you cannot hide from the clearly stated fact that, as far as the Law was concerned the Jews considered him unclean, but God regarded him otherwise.

Abraham was a Gentile like Cornelius, and the righteous things that he did also had nothing to do with the Law of Moses, which came over 400 years later.
Righteousness does not come by following the law, but by listening to the Spirit and heeding it.

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Peter went to Cornelius as a direct command from Christ are you saying he could have refused to go I don't think so.
I didn't say that, but nevertheless its true. Given our freewill Peter could have refused if he so chose.
Just like today, most churches refuses to do what God commanded, ie. cast out demons and heal the sick!
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The whole point of this was Christ showing Peter that the Gospel was for everyone the Jew and the gentiles.

And when Peter preached the Gospel to Cornelius he received the Holy Spirit and without the Spirit we cannot be reborn into the body of Christ.
Show me anywhere that says the outpouring of the Spirit on Pentecost was about New Birth!
Pentecost was about the existing believers receiving power to do the works of Christ.


Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Online davetaff

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2017, 04:18:15 PM »
Explain this Dave,-
Heb11v24By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh?s daughter, 25choosing rather to endure ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26considering the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures of Egypt; for he was looking to the reward.
Jesus Christ was born over 1200 years after Moses died. How could Moses "consider the reproach of Christ" when Christ was not yet born".

Well Frances as you well know Christ has existed from before creation Christ spoke to Moses out of the burning bush and on the mountain face to face and Moses believed him and obeyed him in almost everything but did he know him as the son of man and his redeemer Christ went before Israel in a piller of smoke by day and fire by night so yes Moses new Christ     


1Cor10v4and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.
Again, how could Christ have accompanied the Israelites when he was not yet born?

Like I said Christ has always existed with the father through him and for him all things were created he only became the son of man when he was born of the virgin Mary Christ accompanied the Israelites in his role of creator.   

Knowing Christ has nothing to do with being taught about the death and resurrection of Jesus. Christ is the creator God written about throughout the bible.There is no evidence anywhere that Cornelius was following Jewish law or custom. Had that been the case, he would have been considered a proselyte, and not unclean by Peter.

No you are right there is no evidence that Cornelius followed the Jewish laws but there is no evidence he followed the gospel either.
God had already made it clear to peter that the gentiles were clean so that's not an issue is it.
  If as you say there is no need for the gospel to be reborn why dose Peter say this.       


1Pe 4:6  For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
   

Why preach to the dead makes no sense if you are right   


Dave, you cannot hide from the clearly stated fact that, as far as the Law was concerned the Jews considered him unclean, but God regarded him otherwise.

But its what God regards not man   

Abraham was a Gentile like Cornelius, and the righteous things that he did also had nothing to do with the Law of Moses, which came over 400 years later.
Righteousness does not come by following the law, but by listening to the Spirit and heeding it.
I didn't say that, but nevertheless its true. Given our freewill Peter could have refused if he so chose.
Just like today, most churches refuses to do what God commanded, ie. cast out demons and heal the sick!Show me anywhere that says the outpouring of the Spirit on Pentecost was about New Birth!
Pentecost was about the existing believers receiving power to do the works of Christ.

Could Peter refuse Jonah tried it but God brought him back did he have free will?
As for Abraham what did he do

Gen 15:6  And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
   


Mat 3:11  I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
 

     


Baptism is rebirth And John the Baptist is telling us here there will be a baptism of the Holy Spirit And with Fire.


Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Cariad

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2017, 06:31:45 PM »
Hello there,

I read through this thread the other day, and I want to thank you for referring to (Heb 11:26) with it's reference to, 'the reproach of Christ'.

'Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt:
 for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.'


* I have been looking up references to the reproach of Christ, and considering it in the light of Moses himself, and been blessed by it.

* However, with respect, I believe the subject heading, is not right, for Moses was not a Christian: He believed what He heard concerning The One Who was to come, the Messiah (Christ) and was willing to share in His reproach, yes: but he cannot be called a Christian; that is a term for another dispensation, not the one in which Moses lived. To take what applies to one dispensation and apply it to another just causes confusion and possible error .

In Christ Jesus
Cariad


Offline francis drake

Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2017, 10:12:40 AM »
Hello there,

I read through this thread the other day, and I want to thank you for referring to (Heb 11:26) with it's reference to, 'the reproach of Christ'.

'Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt:
 for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.'


* I have been looking up references to the reproach of Christ, and considering it in the light of Moses himself, and been blessed by it.

* However, with respect, I believe the subject heading, is not right, for Moses was not a Christian: He believed what He heard concerning The One Who was to come, the Messiah (Christ) and was willing to share in His reproach, yes: but he cannot be called a Christian; that is a term for another dispensation, not the one in which Moses lived. To take what applies to one dispensation and apply it to another just causes confusion and possible error.

Hi @Cariad, the subject heading was a bit tongue in cheek just to stir things up a little. However I disagree that it will lead to error. In fact it is my intention to see a proper examination of the subject and to challenge some wrongly held views.

It is only the Greek language and tradition that makes us believe that the word Christian belongs to one dispensation.
If we take the view that Christians are followers of Christ, then as a follower of Christ, why exclude Moses?

I am sure you would agree that Christ was in the world before Jesus made an appearance?

John1v1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5And the light shines in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

The living Word/Logos shines as light in our darkness just as it did with Moses. It alone is the source of our eternal life and new birth, and that is true in the OT or NT.
The only way anyone comprehends that light is if they respond to the Spirit speaking in their hearts. It is listening and responding to the Spirit of God that defines a Christian, not a correct theology of the cross.

Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)