Author Topic: How good a christian do you think Moses was?  (Read 524 times)

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Offline John

Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2017, 03:59:17 PM »
Dave,
        All I'm saying is if we make critical judgements on other people, we should be sure that we have the facts and judge correctly.

In the case of Moses, he ws chosen.
So by god and spoke with god frequently.
 I know of no non christian who communicated with God in the bible.
So who it follows that Moses was/is a Christian.

Offline davetaff

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #25 on: August 30, 2017, 05:01:18 PM »
Dave,
        All I'm saying is if we make critical judgements on other people, we should be sure that we have the facts and judge correctly.

In the case of Moses, he ws chosen.
So by god and spoke with god frequently.
 I know of no non christian who communicated with God in the bible.
So who it follows that Moses was/is a Christian.

Hi John
Thanks for making that clear I was thinking of the  tree that Frances mentioned the tree of life Christ its described as Israels own  tree so one has to ask if we are grafted into there tree do we all become Israelites hence the saying all Israel will be saved.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline francis drake

Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2017, 09:17:17 PM »
No Frances I have not forgot when Israel accepts Christ they will be grafted back into there own tree which as you say is Christ.
So Jews and Christians will all be in the tree of life which is Christ Jesus our Lord then all Israel will be saved then Christ will hand everything back to God the Father and God will be all in all what a wonderful future we have.
But, as Moses in the OT makes abundantly clear, accepting Christ has nothing to do with understanding the cross has it. Mary and Joseph were faithful born again believers firmly growing in that tree when God called them to be parents of Jesus, yet they had no clue of the cross.

Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #27 on: September 03, 2017, 05:09:30 PM »
But, as Moses in the OT makes abundantly clear, accepting Christ has nothing to do with understanding the cross has it. Mary and Joseph were faithful born again believers firmly growing in that tree when God called them to be parents of Jesus, yet they had no clue of the cross.

Hi Frances
What makes you think that Mary and Joseph were born again where in the scriptures are we told this as far as I know they were Jews why Mary was chosen to bare our Lord only God knows.

to be Born again they needed to be baptised with the Spirit and with fire but I don't think we are told this are we but they may well have been born again after  Pentecost.

Love and Peace
Dave 

Offline francis drake

Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #28 on: September 03, 2017, 09:59:07 PM »
Hi Frances
What makes you think that Mary and Joseph were born again where in the scriptures are we told this as far as I know they were Jews why Mary was chosen to bare our Lord only God knows.
You need to ask the same question of all the other believers in the New Testament, from Matthew all the way to Revelation. I personally don't recall reading any further reference to the subject in regard to the apostles or other players. We just infer it from the text, just as we can do with Joseph and Mary, and all the believers who preceded them.
Quote
to be Born again they needed to be baptised with the Spirit and with fire but I don't think we are told this are we but they may well have been born again after  Pentecost.
This is not true Dave, you are adding to scripture. There is a considerable difference between being born from above by the Spirit of God, and then as a later experience, being filled with the Holy Spirit and power.

This subject has been covered at great length in the thread I started a couple of years back-
https://www.1faith.co.uk/?topic=6774.0

Don't forget that when Jesus told Nicodemus that he must be born again, it was still in the Old Testament period. The New Testament period didn't start till Jesus announced it on the evening before the crucifixion. That was three years later.
Additionally, Jesus was speaking in the present tense, not something Nicodemus would have to do in the future. Thus being born again was possible and necessary long before Jesus died and long before Pentecost.
ie. perfectly true for all OT believers.

If the OT believers did not have spiritual birth, then they were unregenerate and dead to any spiritual communion with God. A state of being that rendered it impossible to even write the scriptures, as they did.
https://www.1faith.co.uk/?topic=6774.0
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2017, 11:50:22 AM »
Hi Frances
Thanks for your reply but I think its not quite right


 1  And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

 2  And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

 3  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

 4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance   


Here we see that the Spirit was given at Pentecost not before and in Acts 1 it says.

.   And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

 14  These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren     


So Mary was born again at Pentecost not before or are the scriptures wrong.

Love and peace
Dave

Offline francis drake

Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2017, 03:46:05 PM »
Hi Frances
Thanks for your reply but I think its not quite right


 1  And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

 2  And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

 3  And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

 4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance   


Here we see that the Spirit was given at Pentecost not before and in Acts 1 it says.

.   And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.

 14  These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren     


So Mary was born again at Pentecost not before or are the scriptures wrong.

Love and peace
Dave
But Dave, all your verses about Pentecost can be completely discounted as they contain not one reference whatsoever to anyone becoming born again!
Pentecost was about receiving power, something only available to those who were already born again.

The claim that nobody could be born again till Pentecost is nothing more than a baseless church tradition that needs to be completely tossed aside.

If Jesus tells Nicodemus that he must be born again, it becomes a complete nonsense if such a thing was not possible for another three years, (ie. Pentecost), especially as Jesus was speaking in the present tense, ie. now!
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

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Re: How good a christian do you think Moses was?
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2017, 06:41:42 PM »
Hi Frances
We are reborn through baptism

.    5  For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence 

Here our Lord is speaking of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost before Pentecost no one had received the Holy Spirit except our Lord at his baptism.

Israel were baptized when they when through the Jorden but they did not receive the Spirit.
I don't think all of those God chose to preach his word received the Spirit as those did at Pentecost.
I believe God used the Spirit to speak through all the prophets but they did not have it in the same sense as those at Pentecost.

Love and Peace
Dave