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Offline Cariad

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Re: The grave
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2017, 01:57:11 PM »
Question - Where did the thief on the Cross go and who was he going to be with?

Hello @Devonboy,

The thief would have been buried, his body would have gone back to the dust from whence it came, and his spirit (or breath of life) would have gone back to God Who gave it (Ecc.3:20;Ecc.12:7) .  The Lord Jesus Christ as you know, died and was buried until his spirit returned unto Him and He rose from the grave (Luke 24:7) .  The thief is awaiting the resurrection of the dead, when he will be with Christ in paradise (Rev.2:7; Rev.21:10; Rev.22:1-5) , which is the heavenly Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven to the new earth in which the believing remnant of Israel, along with the rest of those who comprise the Bride of the Lamb (Re.21:9b) will reign with Him for a thousand years (Rev.20:6). 

There is no consciousness in death (Ecc.9:5), the thief will just awake to resurrection life (Psa.17:15).

In Christ Jesus
Cariad


Offline Devonboy

Re: The grave
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2017, 02:20:20 PM »
A person who has trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ as his Saviour goes immediately to heaven to be in the presence of the Lord. Though their body is in the grave and decomposes, their soul and spirit (the immaterial part, the real person) goes immediately into the presence of the Saviour. At the rapture (the return of the Lord for the church) the dead in Christ return with Him and their bodies are raised so that their souls and spirits are joined with their resurrected, glorified bodies. At the same time, those who are alive when Christ returns are simply transformed into their glorified bodies like that of the Saviour's. There is no intermediate place or condition of soul sleep. Rather, believers are in heaven with the Lord and very much aware of His presence. Here are a few verses that illustrate this:

Phil. 1:21-23. ?For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labour for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;?
When Paul wrote this, he was imprisoned in his own apartment, chained daily to a Roman soldier while waiting for his trial with the very real the possibility he would be put to death. Though he was confident of deliverance from physical death at this time, he was also confident that to die meant to be with Christ which he declared to be far better, a statement which hardly fits with the concept of ?soul sleep.?
2 Cor. 5:6-8. ?Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight, 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.?
In this passage, the Apostle Paul specifically tells us that to absent from the body (a reference to physical death), not only meant to be in the presence of the Lord, but it was like going home. See also John 14:1f, and 12:26.

Offline davetaff

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Re: The grave
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2017, 02:37:50 PM »
Question - Where did the thief on the Cross go and who was he going to be with?

Hi Devonboy
Welcome to the site and thank you for your question It has been asked many times on different forums I will give you my interpretation but expect you will receive others.

I take it it is this verse you are referring to

Luk 23:43  And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
 


Some people say the comer after thee is in the wrong place it should be after To day which changes the meaning    " Verily I say unto thee To day, shalt thou be with me in paradise " 

we have to remember that what we say must coincide with the rest of scripture and if you have read my previous posts on this subject you will see that I believe that when we die the only place we go is the grave and there we sleep until the resurrection.
There is no  consciousness in the grave its the same as when you go to sleep at night you remember nothing and its a new day which is called Today and it will be the same for the thief when he is raised up for him it will be today.

Heb 4:5  And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6  Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Heb 4:7  Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Heb 4:8  For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Heb 4:9  There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
Heb 4:10  For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
   
 

The above text is a reference to Gods Rest which is a future event and when that day dawns it will be today.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Cariad

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Re: The grave
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2017, 02:45:31 PM »
A person who has trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ as his Saviour goes immediately to heaven to be in the presence of the Lord. Though their body is in the grave and decomposes, their soul and spirit (the immaterial part, the real person) goes immediately into the presence of the Saviour. At the rapture (the return of the Lord for the church) the dead in Christ return with Him and their bodies are raised so that their souls and spirits are joined with their resurrected, glorified bodies. At the same time, those who are alive when Christ returns are simply transformed into their glorified bodies like that of the Saviour's. There is no intermediate place or condition of soul sleep. Rather, believers are in heaven with the Lord and very much aware of His presence. Here are a few verses that illustrate this:

Phil. 1:21-23 ?For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22 But if I am to live on in the flesh, this will mean fruitful labour for me; and I do not know which to choose. 23 But I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better;?
When Paul wrote this, he was imprisoned in his own apartment, chained daily to a Roman soldier while waiting for his trial with the very real the possibility he would be put to death. Though he was confident of deliverance from physical death at this time, he was also confident that to die meant to be with Christ which he declared to be far better, a statement which hardly fits with the concept of ?soul sleep.?
2 Cor. 5:6-8. ?Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord, 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight, 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.?
In this passage, the Apostle Paul specifically tells us that to absent from the body (a reference to physical death), not only meant to be in the presence of the Lord, but it was like going home. See also John 14:1f, and 12:26.

Hello @Devonboy,

I do not want to argue this point with you, but the verses you have quoted, if properly interpreted in their context, do not provide proof of what you claim.

'For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour:
yet what I shall choose I wot not.
For I am in a strait betwixt two,
having a desire to depart,
and to be with Christ;
which is far better: ... '

(Phil.1:21-23)

Paul's desire here was to depart and to be with Christ, which required Christ's return.  Paul states the two options, life or death, but chooses neither, for to die would mean being in an unclothed state (2 Cor.5:4), which he hoped to avoid, by the return of Christ, which at that time was possible of being imminent, if Israel had come to repentance.

'Therefore we are always confident, knowing that,
whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
(For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body,
and to be present with the Lord.'

(2Cor. 5:6-8) 

If you look at the whole passage, from verse 1-10, you will see that the same thing is said, as explained above. The desire was to be present with the Lord, but that required His return, otherwise death brought the unclothed state that Paul desired to avoid.

You also quote John 14:1 and John 12:26.  I believe the first must be a misquote, while the second speaks of the one who believes in the Lord, being with Him where He is, but that, as I say, will require resurrection, for it requires a spiritual body (corruption must put on incorruption)

Thank you,
In Christ Jesus
Cariad


PS: the unclothed state being death: 

'For this corruptible must put on incorruption,
and this mortal must put on immortality.
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption,
and this mortal shall have put on immortality,
then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,
Death is swallowed up in victory.'

(1Cor 15:53-54)

* That happens at the resurrection (1 Cor.15:35-49) - Praise God!

Offline Devonboy

Re: The grave
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2017, 04:55:44 PM »
We could discuss this forever,but the view which I personally believe is that we go to a place, either Paradise or Hades, to wait for judgment.
 In Luke 16:19-31 one finds the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. This passage describes a bad places, called Hades, where the rich man is waiting in some sort of  torment. In this scene, Lazarus asks Abraham for the opportunity to go and warn his family against entering Hades. In this parable, Lazarus is described as being in a better place?a place called Paradise by Jesus in Luke 23:43?where he is waiting as well.
 The parable seems to clearly describe a place, or actually places, where people are in a conscious state of some sort after death but before final judgment. Of course, this is a parable, and one must be cautious about taking too much of a doctrinal nature from a parable, but if it does not describe an in-between place, then the parable could be accused of being confusing. In the Luke 23:43 passage, Jesus says ?today you will be with me in Paradise?
to the repentant thief. This would appear to support the thesis in mind here.
 David?s use of sheol (Psalms 89:48, 86:13, 55:15, 49:14,31;17, 30:3, 18:5 and many others) and Solomon?s use of both sheol and abaddon (Proverbs 15:11), which are translated in the NIV as ?death? and ?destruction? lend support but not proof to the idea of Paradise and Hades. I say lend support rather than provide proof because the usage of David and Solomon is in a poetic context and in any case is not completely clear as to what is being mentioned.
Other New Testament passages seem to strongly support this idea. These would include Revelation 20:14, ?and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them?? This seems an  obvious parallel to the Sheol and Abaddon of Proverbs 15:11.
To summarize, I accept that there is more than one possible explanation of what happens to us upon death but before final judgment. God leaves us with what I  personally believe is a most likely answer, but does not make it absolutely crystal clear. If it was really important for us to know, God would have made it clear.
 The bottom line on this is that it does not really matter for practical purposes exactly what happens to us when we die, because one thing is absolutely perfectly clear from the Bible. There lies for us a day/time in the future when all of us will face judgment and enter an eternal destiny in either heaven with God or in hell, separated from God.
Surely this is motivation enough for us to make every effort to enter through the narrow gate into heaven with our God and to bring as many as possible with us, off of the wide road which leads to destruction, and onto the narrow road which leads to life (paraphrasing Matthew 7:13,14). I hope to see you there.

Offline francis drake

Re: The grave
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2017, 10:48:45 PM »
Hello @francis drake,

The former is a deception
Visiting heaven is not deception @Cariad. It has happened to many people and their experiences generally agree with each other.

At the age of 3, my wife visited heaven. She saw Jesus and the heavenly city with its gates of jewels etc. This happened on several occasions.
She was not from a Christian family and was 18 years old before someone gave her a bible, which she read from cover to cover. When she read the scriptures about the heavenly city, she realised it was exactly as she had already seen as a child.

Ephesians 3:14 and 15 "For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named."
How can there be any family in heaven if they somehow remain in the grave?

1 Thessalonians 4:14 ?For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.?
When Jesus returns, God will bring those who ?sleep in Jesus? WITH HIM. Amen! The only way for God to bring those saints WITH HIM means that they were already WITH HIM in Heaven. Those who die in the Lord are asleep in Jesus, but their soul and spirit are in Heaven with the Lord.

Philippians 3:20 ?For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.?
How can our citizenship be in heaven, if on death we remain in the grave?

2 Corinthians 5:8, ?We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.?
How can anyone be present with the Lord if we remain in the grave?

Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, (the thief on the cross) "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."
If we remain in the grave, then Jesus lied.

Lk16v22One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham?s bosom. And the rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he cried out, ?Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.??
On one day, both the beggar and the rich man died. Each then went to a very different destination, neither going into soul sleep in the grave.


Exodus24v9Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. 11But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.
Here we see the patriarchs ascending to heaven to the throne of God.


Quote
* Paul spoke regarding visions (2 Cor.12:1-5). The words, 'caught up', in verse 2, is actually, 'caught away' in the Greek.(Bible marginal notes). Like John the Apostle, the vision could have been of the future heaven and earth of the book of the Revelation,
Paul makes it clear that it was 14 years ago that he was caught up into Paradise. The language used is direct and does not allow a future vision.
Quote

This has been argued many times, and it is pointless going over it again, unless both sides are willing to let the Word of God be the final arbiter.
It seems to me @Cariad, that you believe yourself to be the only one willing to let the word of God be the final arbiter.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Cariad

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Re: The grave
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2017, 08:13:50 AM »
Hello @francis drake

The points you have raised have all been dealt with in previous posts, and I have not got time to go through them again at present.  The context of each one gives the answer in each case, and only preconceived notions born of tradition are preventing you seeing the truth.

This is between yourself and the Lord, fd, only He can bring understanding. I hope you do not prefer to believe a lie.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline Devonboy

Re: The grave
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2017, 11:28:12 AM »
There is always Elijah, I don't believe that he went to sleep!!