Author Topic: The grave  (Read 1610 times)

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Offline davetaff

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Re: The grave
« Reply #64 on: November 27, 2017, 02:22:21 PM »
Hi
If everyone has Gods life giving spirit and this returns to God at death this means that the spirits of the unbelievers and sinners also return to God if this is so and these spirits are alive and conscious how can they come into the presence of God because nothing unclean can come into Gods presence.

So it stands to reason that the life giving spirit given by God to all living creatures is jest that a life giving spirit the breath of life its what God used to start life on this planet this spirit is in all living creatures it is one spirit it cant be broken up in to individuals.
The spirit belongs to God it is what God uses to create a living soul

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Devonboy

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Re: The grave
« Reply #65 on: November 27, 2017, 04:34:39 PM »
Prior to Jesus? Return, the Resurrection and the Judgment
We will remain in Heaven or Hades until Jesus returns to earth and gives us all our resurrection Bodies. While our experience after death will be tangible, it will not be complete. A complete afterlife can only be experienced with both our body and our soul.
After Jesus? Return, the Resurrection and the Judgment
If we are saved believers, we will experience the fullness of the afterlife in our resurrected bodies. If we have rejected Jesus, we will move from Hades to Gehenna and experience the fullness of judgment.

Offline davetaff

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Re: The grave
« Reply #66 on: November 28, 2017, 11:44:25 AM »
Prior to Jesus? Return, the Resurrection and the Judgment
We will remain in Heaven or Hades until Jesus returns to earth and gives us all our resurrection Bodies. While our experience after death will be tangible, it will not be complete. A complete afterlife can only be experienced with both our body and our soul.
After Jesus? Return, the Resurrection and the Judgment
If we are saved believers, we will experience the fullness of the afterlife in our resurrected bodies. If we have rejected Jesus, we will move from Hades to Gehenna and experience the fullness of judgment.

Hi Devonboy
Thank you for your post interesting point of view can you tell me how you understand the following verse.

. 1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.     

If we sleep in Christ how can we be alive in heaven if we sleep we are not conscious of anything.

As for the sinner and unbeliever the just sleep in the grave if as you say they are tormented in hades it would mean the judgement has already happens or are you saying there are two judgements one when we die and one when our Lord returns.

The words hades and hell just mean the grave nothing more always remember we are talking about the God of Love casting people into a literal lake of fire is not in keeping with our understanding of Love.

For myself I believe those who have bean baptized with the Spirit and with fire will become the lake of fire and will rule the world with Christ our king of n the millennium.

Love and peace
Dave

Offline Devonboy

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Re: The grave
« Reply #67 on: November 28, 2017, 04:41:52 PM »
The New Testament often refers to the believer's death as "sleep." For this reason, early Christians called their burial places "cemeteries" (Greek koimeteria) which literally meant "dormitories" or "sleeping places." First Thessalonians 5:9-10 teaches, "For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him" see also 1 Corinthians 15:51. Christ has defeated death, and so Christians "sleep" upon the end of this life. They truly "rest in peace."

While a believer's body is in the grave, awaiting resurrection, his spirit is in the presence of the Lord 2 Corinthians 5:8. An unbeliever, on the other hand, dies twice: at physical death, his body is interred, and what follows is an eternal separation from God, called "the second death" in Revelation 21:8. How different from the eternal destiny of those in Christ! Philippians 3:20-21 says, "our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body."

Quote: The words hades and hell just mean the grave nothing more always remember we are talking about the God of Love casting people into a literal lake of fire is not in keeping with our understanding of Love.

No God does not make the choice, man does, by not accepting the free gift that God offers of Eternal Life, man makes the choice!
Matt 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Romans 2:6-8 
He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.
John 3:36 l
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

What matters as an individual is, have we called upon the name of the Lord?:
Romans 10:13
For ?everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: The grave
« Reply #68 on: November 29, 2017, 01:40:37 AM »
Hi @Devonboy


how do you interpret Matthew 27:52  and the tombs broke open. The bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life.

Obviously that life was not heaven - unless of course heaven is on earth...

It is about the Glory of God and his Testimony - see : John 9:3  "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him.


A man being born blind - [ or a man born into a disfuntional family - a person born being addicted to drugs  - a person born with a disorder - being born that way so that the Glory of God might be displayed [this Was my sundays message at "Chch"]

Blind but now seeing - yet I ask "were those walking in still blind /disabled/ limping/ sleeping/  in Matthew 27:52 or were they resurrected at this point - as we will be "with new bodies" as Jesus had a "Body".

They may have been resurrected - when Jesus was raised - but were they perfect in an imperfect world"

They were resurrected - back into this world  and not the next ,,,, maybe.

They now were awoken - but what too ?

How long did they live and what was the point of this individual resurrection  ? it almost brings you back to frankensteins monster"
ing
The peope bursting out from the graves were  only living as long as God wanted them to live.

52 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints swho had fallen asleep were raised,
raised to what ?]




No they no longer have peace and no they no longer sleep - these walking bodies in Matthew 27:52  are now there for the Glory of God.


Did the walking bodies call on the name of the Lord ?

As did the blind man ask to be born blind ?

I mean once I am dead - the last thing I would want in my "Will" is to walk again in this world.

How dare you interfere with my will and make me come back .....

I am fedup with this spiritual interference in my lifeeeee ' LET ME SLEEPPPPP'


So Samuel was raised back up  [quite clearly conscious] 1 Samuel 28:14-16 - due the Saul's interference...



So Samuel spoke and gave instruction


It seems you would have to be concious to be raised but that raising is not always a resurrection to be with God.

Unless of course you believe the blind receiving sight are all God's Children.

These resurrection's clearly indicate that the sleeping are still conscious... and when raised are  quite aware.



This is quite different to those raised to life and standing at the right hand of God and on the new earth..


Basically it is beyond our reasoning and  comprehension -that those dead are alive and will be raised to life.

Yet those that are dead are also conscious and will not be raised [unless of course you are ones as those described in  Matthew 27:52

Walking and conscious yet dead.........


This is why the dead can affect the living [the spiritual cause distress or good to the living now]

As it is not just about God above all . but how those around you affect you both living and dead. [yet not asleep]

Lazarus was raised from the dead and was quite clearly conscious  [was he raised to heaven or back to the world ?

Quite clearly he was raised back to the  life that he knew and not to heaven.

How was he raised unless he was conscious and given the ablity to react [have a wlil]?

This resurrection has nothing to do wth heavenly resurrection - yet Lazarus was only raised back to life - because Jesus was God and because of the power of God.



Offline Tes Johnson

Re: The grave
« Reply #69 on: November 29, 2017, 03:18:17 AM »
If your argument in the light of scripture is correct  - then Samuel [a child of God] would not have been raised from the dead - but would have been called down fron heaven to earth - to meet Saul and all those raised from the grave "would have been brought down from heaven"

Scripture does not state this - in fact over and over again it states "being drawn up" resurrected from the grave...

Why would I be drawn from the grave - when I am seated with Christ.

Both are consicous - as evident with Luke 16:27-31 - quite clearly Moses speaks to lazarus here .

How can the both be dead and alsleep ?

Lazurus responds " 28 for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.?


Offline davetaff

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Re: The grave
« Reply #70 on: November 29, 2017, 03:23:14 PM »
Hi Devonboy and Tj
Thank you for your interesting posts it seams to me that we are not to far apart we all believe we will go to heaven when we die the only bone of contention is in what state will be there.

If we are alive in heaven what shall we do there mankind was not created for heaven he was created to tend a paradise earth but that went horribly wrong.

But God did not lose sight of his purpose for us he will create a new heaven and earth for us to tend and in this new earth God will be with us so heaven and paradise will be joined together.

So if our place is here on a paradise earth why would God want us in heaven we would not have anything to do there our work is down here.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Devonboy

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Re: The grave
« Reply #71 on: November 29, 2017, 05:00:43 PM »
I will try again and explain what I have been led to believe, and it is a view held by many born again theology experts and preachers of old, who are far able to discern these thing than I am:

From the time believers die, until they return with Christ when He sets up His kingdom, they will be in some conscious form in the intermediate, or "in between" state. Exactly what that form consists of has been an object of much discussion among believers. There are three main views:

Option 1: Disembodied Spirit

The believer is conscious as a disembodied spirit - similar to angels who have no physical form. Their glorified body is received at the resurrection.

Option 2: Temporary Body

The believer has a temporary body while waiting for their glorified body.

Option 3: Glorified Body

The believer receives their glorified body at death. There is no waiting for a general resurrection of the dead.

1. Disembodied Spirit

There are many Bible scholars who believe that, upon death, people become disembodied spirits awaiting the resurrection. Consequently there are three steps for the believer: this earthly body, a disembodied state after death, and finally a resurrected body when Christ returns. The disembodied state is far better than living in this body because the believer is with Christ. Yet it is short of all the things that God has promised.

Christ First

The Scripture says that Christ was the first to receive a resurrection body. Paul wrote.

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have died. . . But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at His coming those who belong to Christ (1 Corinthians 15:20,23).

The righteous will receive their bodies some time in the future. If the saints had received their permanent body upon death, then Abraham, Moses, and the rest of the Old Testament believers, would have been resurrected before Christ. But the Scripture says that Christ was the first.

Still To Come

In several passages, Paul makes it clear that the transformation of our bodies is still future.

For the Lord Himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, and remain, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever (1 Thessalonians 4:16,17).

He wrote about the instantaneous change.

in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed (1 Corinthians 15:52).

We will have a glorious body like His.

He will transform the body of our humiliation that it may be conformed to the body of His glory, by the power that also enables Him to make all things subject to Himself. (Philippians 3:21).

The righteous do not receive their permanent bodies at death. This will have to wait until Christ comes for His people. Hence, there is an interval of time between death and the resurrected state. Resurrection is in the future "at the last trump."

2. Temporary Body At Death

Another theory says that, at death, believers receive a temporary body. They understand this from the following statement of Paul.

For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life (2 Corinthians 5:4).

It is argued that Paul's desire was to be clothed with some, temporary, intermediate body. He did not want to be in a disembodied state. According to this view, the three step process would be: an earthly body, a temporary body, and then a glorified body. The glorified body only comes at the resurrection.

3. Glorified Body Received At Death

There is also the view that the believer receives their glorified body upon death - they are instantaneously resurrected. This position says there is no waiting period between death and the new body that God has promised believers. The biblical support for this belief is found in 2 Corinthians 5:1-10. It is thought that Paul teaches the resurrected body is received upon death in this passage.

For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens (2 Corinthians 5:1).

According to this understanding of Paul, there is no disembodied state between the destruction of our present earthly house, and God's provision of an eternal house. There is no fear of being unclothed. Therefore, when the earthly tent is destroyed, believers immediately receive their new, God-made building. Resurrection is immediate. The resurrection of the dead in the afterlife is existent, but hidden from public view. It will be revealed when Christ appears. Paul wrote.

When Christ who is your life is revealed, then you also will be revealed with Him in glory (Colossians 3:4).

Believers will be revealed with their resurrected bodies when Christ comes. They will not receive them at that time.

Why Wait?

It is argued that there is no reason for the believer to wait for their resurrection body. If the believer will ultimately receive a glorified body, why the wait? Since they are already conscious in heaven in the presence of Christ, why must they wait to receive what He has promised?

No Understanding Of Time

Furthermore, those in the intermediate state would have no understanding of time as we know it. Since there is no real reason for them to wait to receive their glorified body, it is argued that God gives it to them immediately upon their death.

At Second Coming

Therefore, at the Second Coming, all the resurrected saints are brought together and publicly displayed, not raised at that time.

Response

The problem with this view is that it contradicts 1 Thessalonians 4 and 1 Corinthians 15 with respect to the time of the new bodies for the believers. Both these passages emphasize the old bodies of all believers will be changed when Christ returns, not before. To Paul, the resurrection of the body is something future for everyone. Jesus also said the dead will be raised in the future.

Very truly, I tell you, anyone who hears My Word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life, and does not come under judgment, but has passed from death to life. "Very truly, I tell you, the hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For just as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son also to have life in Himself; and He has given Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. Do not be astonished at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in their graves will hear His voice and will come out - those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation (John 5:25-29).

Not That Concerned

The New Testament is not that clear as to the form of the dead in the intermediate state. The main concern of the Bible is with the ultimate destiny of believers and their glorified body. The biblical attitude can be summed up by a statement from Paul.

If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord (Romans 14:8).

Ultimately all believers are with the Lord upon death and are enjoying wonderful surroundings. Beyond this we cannot be certain.

Summary

It is clear from the Scripture that believers immediately go into the presence of Christ upon death. As to what form they exist in the intermediate state, it is not that clear. Christians hold to three different views.

1. Believers are disembodied spirits upon death.

2. A temporary body is given to all believers at death.

3. The believer receives their resurrection body immediately upon death.


This where I stand, I could be wrong as many of us with our opinion on scripture could be, I certainly do not know all the answers to many questions I have about God's Word.
But this I do know, that in the end the  Bible is totally concerned about the state of man before the resurrection, are they saved, have they believed and accepted Gods gracious free gift. The Bible emphasizes the resurrected and glorified state of the believer, and our responsibility is to go and tell, go and make disciples, that is a definite instruction from Jesus.
And that is what I will do, the mechanics about death, heaven, paradise and the new earth I leave in the hands of Jesus, one day we will understand. AMEN.