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Offline francis drake

Re: The grave
« Reply #56 on: November 24, 2017, 06:12:44 PM »
* It is difficult to comprehend, isn't it, @Rose Anna, for it is so outside of our realm of thought.

I found some interesting verses in relation to this last night, while I was reading from Hebrews 12, in verse 9, the words, 'Father of spirits', referring to God the Father, caused me to glance at the notes in the margin of my Bible.  It said that the word, 'spirit', here in verse 9, refer to 'the new-created spirits of His sons.'  The verses given for reference, were, Numbers 16:22; Job 33:4; Eccl.12:7; Isaiah 42:5; Zechariah 12:1.

* Ecclesiastes 12:7, is a verse I often quote because it is particularly relevant, with it's reference back to Genesis, with the words, 'as it was', in reference to the body going back to the dust.

'Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.'
 

* In Numbers 16:22, God is spoken of as, 'the God of the spirits of all flesh'.

'And they fell upon their faces, and said,
"O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh,
shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?"'
 

* I love the words of Job 33:4, where the words, 'Spirit' and 'breath', are synonymous, giving us life, and not only to mankind, but to everything that lives and breathes.

'The Spirit of God hath made me,
and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.


*  Isaiah 42:5, 'breath', and 'spirit' again are spoken of together as one, 

'Thus saith God the LORD,
He that created the heavens, and stretched them out;
He that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it;
He that giveth breath unto the people upon it,
and spirit to them that walk therein: ... '


* Zechariah 12:1, is wonderful, saying that the Lord, 'formeth the spirit of man within him', (man)

'The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel,
saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens,
and layeth the foundation of the earth,
and formeth the spirit of man within him.'


* These verses confirm the nature of the spirit of man, that it is 'breath', it has no ability to speak, think, hear or see, without the function of the body in which it is formed.  Without the body it simply goes back to God for safe keeping until the day of the resurrection of the body, when both will be united when the body is transformed into a body suitable for the sphere in which it is to live: like unto Christ's resurrection body; Who was flesh and bones and not a spirit. (Luke 24:39)
Not one of the above scriptures supports your argument @Cariad. Nowhere do they indicate that the human spirit has no sentient life outside the body. All they show is the separation of body and spirit after death.

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* Body and spirit in combination becomes a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)
That's not true as scripture regularly refers to Body, Soul and Spirit as three separate entities.

The body is just a temporary shell for the human spirit/soul.
(I would prefer not to derail the thread into debating the difference between soul and spirit because in all honesty I struggle with that one. Maybe its worth exploring in another thread. I simply believe soul and spirit are different because that's how scripture shows them.

We both know scripture shows many references to the spirit departing in bodily death, but sometimes also refers to the soul departing from the body on death.
Gen35v18 It came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin. I offer no comment on that.

Just like many have today and in the recorded recent past, Paul visited heaven, -
2Cor12v2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows.
The fact he wasn't clear whether it was just his spirit travelling or his whole body shows he considers both as possible.
He also seemed eager to go and stay there, except he had a job to do on earth!
2Cor5v8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

And as I mentioned elsewhere, a very much alive and sentient Moses and Elijah visited with Jesus and the apostles on the mount of transfiguration.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Rose Anna

Re: The grave
« Reply #57 on: November 25, 2017, 12:19:33 PM »
I have seen that the spirit in a body is a "living soul".
It is a term used for soul in a different context.

Yet we are made up of  a body, spirit and soul. Therefore the soul is also one of three parts of a person.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

Offline Cariad

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Re: The grave
« Reply #58 on: November 25, 2017, 01:14:51 PM »
Not one of the above scriptures supports your argument @Cariad. Nowhere do they indicate that the human spirit has no sentient life outside the body. All they show is the separation of body and spirit after death.
That's not true as scripture regularly refers to Body, Soul and Spirit as three separate entities.
@francis drake

Hello f.d.,

They do show the nature of the spirit of man. That it is the breath of life , and therefore has no form or substance other than spirit.  It is the body that contains the necessary functions for hearing, seeing, speaking, walking and talking. Without those functions how is the spirit to have a separate existence?

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The body is just a temporary shell for the human spirit/soul. (I would prefer not to derail the thread into debating the difference between soul and spirit because in all honesty I struggle with that one. Maybe its worth exploring in another thread. I simply believe soul and spirit are different because that's how scripture shows them.

With the entry of the breath of life, man became a living soul, it is the whole person that is therefore a living soul. At death the spirit leaves the body and goes back to God Who gave it, it is then no longer a living soul.

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We both know scripture shows many references to the spirit departing in bodily death, but sometimes also refers to the soul departing from the body on death.

Gen35v18 It came about as her soul was departing (for she died), that she named him Ben-oni; but his father called him Benjamin. I offer no comment on that.

In this case 'the soul' refers to her 'life', (Heb 'nephesh - H5315) - it was ebbing away, as the necessary breath of life was leaving her body. Soul is very often spoken of in those terms, as the life. (which is the body energized by the spirit - which produces the living soul, or the whole man)

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Just like many have today and in the recorded recent past, Paul visited heaven, -
2Cor12v2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of it I do not know, but God knows.
The fact he wasn't clear whether it was just his spirit travelling or his whole body shows he considers both as possible.

This calls in question what the third heaven refers to, doesn't it?  For like the Apostle John, who saw in vision the things that will occur in the day of the Lord, having been transported 'in spirit' to that future day, it could be the new heaven that he saw.  We cannot also know with any certainty that Paul was indeed speaking of himself.  He says, 'I know a man in Christ ... ... '.

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He also seemed eager to go and stay there, except he had a job to do on earth!
2Cor5v8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

The earlier verses in this chapter refer to the spiritual body which will be put on at resurrection, and this is what Paul desired to be clothed with, not to be 'unclothed' in death.  This would require the return of our Lord, which the refusal of Israel to repent made impossible.  Only then could he be 'at home with the Lord' when 'absent from the body'.

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As I have mentioned elsewhere, a very much alive and sentient Moses and Elijah visited with Jesus and the apostles on the mount of transfiguration.

That was a vision only, as our Lord Himself said in Matt.17:9, a glimpse of His future glory, the fulfillment of Matt.16:28.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline Cariad

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Re: The grave
« Reply #59 on: November 25, 2017, 01:27:58 PM »
I have seen that the spirit in a body is a "living soul".
It is a term used for soul in a different context.

Yet we are made up of  a body, spirit and soul. Therefore the soul is also one of three parts of a person.

For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

Hello @Rose Anna,

Hebrews 4:12, 'dividing asunder of soul and spirit' means not only differentiating between that which is begotten of the flesh (the soul - ie., the whole man) and that which is begotten of the spirit (John 3:6), in the individual; but also between the natural man and the spiritual man [i.e., 'the thoughts and intents of the heart'] (see 1 Cor. 2:13-15).

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: The grave
« Reply #60 on: November 25, 2017, 02:26:01 PM »
Hi
just thinking on this verse

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
   


So through Gods breath of life man became a living soul and ordinary man at death the body goes to the grave and the breath of life returns to God who gave it.

But with coming of our Lord things changed with the gift of the holy spirit

2Co 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
   


So we are a new creature in Christ Jesus our Lord

Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7  For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
 


So through baptism we die we are dead to this world we live in Christ and for Christ we cannot die so long as we remain in him we cannot die

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.     

So we are alive in Christ where he is sleeping awaiting for him to awaken us from sleep.

Love and Peace
Dave 

Offline Cariad

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Re: The grave
« Reply #61 on: November 25, 2017, 02:45:45 PM »
Hi
just thinking on this verse

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
   


So through Gods breath of life man became a living soul and ordinary man at death the body goes to the grave and the breath of life returns to God who gave it.

But with coming of our Lord things changed with the gift of the holy spirit

2Co 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
   


So we are a new creature in Christ Jesus our Lord

Rom 6:4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7  For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
 


So through baptism we die we are dead to this world we live in Christ and for Christ we cannot die so long as we remain in him we cannot die

1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.     

So we are alive in Christ where he is sleeping awaiting for him to awaken us from sleep.

Love and Peace
Dave
@davetaff

Hi Dave,

In God's estimation yes, we have died with Christ, been buried, quickened into life and raised with Him, and have ascended 'in Him' to God's right hand: where we await His 'appearing'; when we too will appear with Him in glory.

For us death has no sting, it is swallowed up in Christ's victory. Our life is hid with Christ in God.  How secure is that.  We, as you say, sleep in Christ, until that glorious day.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline francis drake

Re: The grave
« Reply #62 on: November 26, 2017, 05:05:25 PM »
@francis drake

Hello f.d.,

They do show the nature of the spirit of man.
That it is the breath of life ,
and therefore has no form or substance other than spirit. 
It is the body that contains the necessary functions for hearing, seeing, speaking, walking and talking.
Without those functions how is the spirit to have a separate existence?


No @Cariad, scripture is clear that like the angels who are spiritual entities, our human spirit is also an entity in its own right, possessing senses and understanding that mirror the senses of our physical body.
After death our spirit man continues independently and outside of the body as it ascends to the Father.

Rom8v16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
If our human spirit is nothing more than the breath of life, having no spiritual ears and eyes, how could the Holy Spirit commune with it? Our physical ears and eyes are utterly deaf and blind to the things of the Spiritual realm.

1Cor2v14 But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to understand them, because spiritually they are discerned.
Here we are again, the "natural" man refers to someone who tries to understand God with his mind (Greek psuchikos = Psyche), an impossible task.

Proverbs18v14 The spirit of a man can endure his sickness, But as for a broken spirit who can bear it?
If the human spirit is nothing more than breath, how can it be wounded.

Hagg1v14 So the LORD stirred up the spirit of Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and the spirit of Joshua son of Jozadak, the high priest, and the spirit of the whole remnant of the people. They came and began to work on the house of the LORD Almighty, their God,
How can the Lord stir up anyone's spirit if it doesn't have the sense or intuition to understand or respond.

Prov17v22 How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit (Ruach) there is no deceit!
If the human spirit is merely breath, it cannot have deceit. If as some claim, it refers to the spirit of the Lord, then obviously it cannot have deceit.

1Cor14v14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
Here we clearly have two parallel options, the human mind and the human spirit.

Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Cariad

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Re: The grave
« Reply #63 on: November 27, 2017, 11:15:12 AM »
No @Cariad, scripture is clear that like the angels who are spiritual entities, our human spirit is also an entity in its own right, possessing senses and understanding that mirror the senses of our physical body.
After death our spirit man continues independently and outside of the body as it ascends to the Father.

Rom8v16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
If our human spirit is nothing more than the breath of life, having no spiritual ears and eyes, how could the Holy Spirit commune with it? Our physical ears and eyes are utterly deaf and blind to the things of the Spiritual realm.
@francis drake

Hello again, f.d.,

The first occurrence of 'spirit' in Romans (Rom.1:4) is important, as it refers to the nature of the Lord Jesus.

'Concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord,
which was made of the seed of David
according to the flesh;
And declared to be the Son of God with power,
according to the spirit of holiness,
by the resurrection from the dead: ... '

(Rom 1:3)

* Regarding His flesh, He was, 'of the seed of David'.  Regarding His spirit, He was, 'the Son of God.' Here we have the 'Christ Spirit' ('pneuma') of Romans 8, without which we cannot be sons. It is this spirit (or new nature) that indwells the believer with which the Holy Spirit communicates.  The old nature cannot receive of the things of God for they are foolishness to him, as the verse you quote next f.d., is witness to (1 Cor.2:14).

* The Holy Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit (or new nature) that we are the children of God.

Praise God!

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Proverbs18v14 The spirit of a man can endure his sickness, But as for a broken spirit who can bear it?
If the human spirit is nothing more than breath, how can it be wounded.

* 'Pneuma', or spirit, is used of man's nature (psychologically).

* In Gen.2:7, by the union of body and spirit, man becomes 'a living soul', ie., a living being.
 
* When the body returns to dust, 'as it was' (Gen.3:19), the spirit returns to God who gave it (Ecc.12:7; Psa.104:29,30), and man becomes, and is called, a 'dead soul':-  See Lev. 21:11 and Num.6:6, where the Hebrew words, 'dead soul' (nephesh), is rendered, 'dead body'  by the translators!! - and compare also, Num. 9:6,7,10 and 19:11,13.
 
* It is also used of, 'the dead in Lev. 22:4 & Hag.2:13.

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[Hag.1v14 So the LORD stirred up the spirit of Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and the spirit of Joshua son of Jozadak, the high priest, and the spirit of the whole remnant of the people. They came and began to work on the house of the LORD Almighty, their God,
How can the Lord stir up anyone's spirit if it doesn't have the sense or intuition to understand or respond.

* This is also referring to the psychological nature of man, in the flesh,  which feels, and can be stirred up into anger etc.,

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[Prov17v22 How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit (Ruach) there is no deceit!
If the human spirit is merely breath, it cannot have deceit. If as some claim, it refers to the spirit of the Lord, then obviously it cannot have deceit.

* Psalm 32:2 is the reference for this verse, f.d.,
 
* The word, 'ruach', is used in many ways, and the context of each reference determines it's meaning, but primarily it means the life force, that which is invisible. It is rendered 'spirit' and 'breath'.

* As coming from God, it is the invisible origin of life, all apart from this is death.

*  It is used of Jehovah, 'the Spirit of Jehovah', or Jehovah Himself, and His manifestation of invisible power.

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1Cor14v14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.
Here we clearly have two parallel options, the human mind and the human spirit.

* 'The mind' here, refers to, 'understanding'.

* Prayer is the breath of the new nature, as the Word of God is it's food.

* The prayer of the 'lips', or of the natural man, is not prayer at all.

---------------

'For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?
even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God;
that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.'

(1Cor 2:11-12)

* Here, 'pneuma' (spirit) is used of man psychologically. 
* The gift of the new nature is of God and is here set in contrast with the natural man, and the things of this world. 
* The new nature is a gift of God, which all we who believe receive.

Praised God!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad


* Thank you, for these sources of fruitful thought, f.d.,