Author Topic: The grave  (Read 784 times)

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Offline Rose Anna

Re: The grave
« Reply #48 on: November 22, 2017, 02:19:35 PM »
We could discuss this but it may take time.  :D

Offline Cariad

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Re: The grave
« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2017, 09:24:51 AM »
'Therefore prophesy and say unto them,
Thus saith the Lord GOD;
"Behold, O my people,
I will open your graves,
and cause you to come up out of your graves,
and bring you into the land of Israel.
And ye shall know that I am the LORD,
when I have opened your graves, O my people,
and brought you up out of your graves,
And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live
,
and I shall place you in your own land:
then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it,
and performed it, saith the LORD.'

(Eze 37:12)-14) 

This is obviously a prophecy concerning God's People Israel, but it shows quite clearly where the dead remain. In the grave.  There are many more references like this, and so to deny the truth of it is senseless.

This refers to a resurrection of the dead of Israel, which is specific, but the state of the dead, as described here is common to all.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad


Hello there,

The above quote is the OP, which I had forgotten that I had entered, I bring it back to notice, because of the testimony the verse within it gives to the state of the dead.

I woke up this morning considering Rose Anna's post, and what I said in response to her regarding the reference to 1 Samuel 28, and the account of Saul and the woman who had a familiar spirit.  I said that I did not believe that when it is said that Samuel 'spoke' in verse 15 and said,'Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up?' that it was indeed Samuel speaking,  but a spirit impersonating Samuel. I said this because Samuel's spirit had gone back to God Who gave it, as we are told happens to the spirit (or breath of life) at death.

Yet, saying this makes me uncomfortable because it looks as though I am choosing to ignore the words of Scripture in order to hold on to what I believe concerning the state of the dead.  However, if the testimony of Scripture elsewhere is that the spirit goes back to God who gave it at death (Eccl.12:7), how can Samuel be raised up to speak to Saul.  Especially as Scripture tells us elsewhere that those who go down to the grave go into silence  (Psalm 115:17).  There is no consciousness (Eccl.9:5), therefore no speech. Also if this is true, and it must be because the Word of God says so, it makes a nonsense of the account of the Rich Man and Lazarus to be anything other than a refutal of the teaching of the Pharisees, to whom the Lord is speaking in Luke 16:19-31.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad




Offline Rose Anna

Re: The grave
« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2017, 10:03:03 AM »
Hello @Cariad

I came to present things  in that way, in making sense of the references to consciousness and sleeping. That does not mean I am right.
Just seeking the truth.

I realise my mistake in connecting the  resurrection of the unjust, to those who are redeemed but facing losses, like Solomon.
As you showed there is  a resurrection of the just and a resurrection of the unjust.

In coming back to spiritual consciousness or spiritual sleep.

Jesus Himself made a reference to a ghost. It could be said that He was referring to angels or demons, but it does not seem that way, on reading it.

"They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, 'Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself!

Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have." Luke24:37-39

Just wondered when did Jesus preach to the spirits. That is because it says in 1 Peter 3:18-20 that He was made alive in the Spirit.

Could it be possible that Jesus went to prison and paradise, on the same day.

If I went to London from Coventry,  I could stop in a town or city in between,  beforehand.

The following is just a view I have seen.

It is said that the just and unjust shared the same place Sheol. Then He redeemed many captives to paradise. Ephesians 4:8

Another consideration is Jesus referred to His death and resurrection as the sign of Jonah. Matthew 12:38-45 Jonah was live in the belly of the fish.



Offline Rose Anna

Re: The grave
« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2017, 11:18:57 AM »
In regarding the breath of life, that returns to God.
Could that be in a different way, to the way it has been interpreted.?

Offline Cariad

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Re: The grave
« Reply #52 on: November 24, 2017, 10:42:22 AM »
In regarding the breath of life, that returns to God.
Could that be in a different way, to the way it has been interpreted.?


Sorry Rose Anna, I don't understand. What interpretation are you thinking of?

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline Rose Anna

Re: The grave
« Reply #53 on: November 24, 2017, 11:25:12 AM »
In the sense that God is everywhere. God's people go fully into His presence without the body and physical world in the way. Yet can still be conscious or know the effect.


Sorry I don't know how else to explain.

Offline Cariad

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Re: The grave
« Reply #54 on: November 24, 2017, 12:18:15 PM »
In the sense that God is everywhere. God's people go fully into His presence without the body and physical world in the way. Yet can still be conscious or know the effect.

Sorry I don't know how else to explain.

* It is difficult to comprehend, isn't it, @Rose Anna, for it is so outside of our realm of thought.

I found some interesting verses in relation to this last night, while I was reading from Hebrews 12, in verse 9, the words, 'Father of spirits', referring to God the Father, caused me to glance at the notes in the margin of my Bible.  It said that the word, 'spirit', here in verse 9, refer to 'the new-created spirits of His sons.'  The verses given for reference, were, Numbers 16:22; Job 33:4; Eccl.12:7; Isaiah 42:5; Zechariah 12:1.

* Ecclesiastes 12:7, is a verse I often quote because it is particularly relevant, with it's reference back to Genesis, with the words, 'as it was', in reference to the body going back to the dust.

'Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was:
and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.'
 

* In Numbers 16:22, God is spoken of as, 'the God of the spirits of all flesh'.

'And they fell upon their faces, and said,
"O God, the God of the spirits of all flesh,
shall one man sin, and wilt thou be wroth with all the congregation?"'
 

* I love the words of Job 33:4, where the words, 'Spirit' and 'breath', are synonymous, giving us life, and not only to mankind, but to everything that lives and breathes.

'The Spirit of God hath made me,
and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.


*  Isaiah 42:5, 'breath', and 'spirit' again are spoken of together as one, 

'Thus saith God the LORD,
He that created the heavens, and stretched them out;
He that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it;
He that giveth breath unto the people upon it,
and spirit to them that walk therein: ... '


* Zechariah 12:1, is wonderful, saying that the Lord, 'formeth the spirit of man within him', (man)

'The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel,
saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens,
and layeth the foundation of the earth,
and formeth the spirit of man within him.'


* These verses confirm the nature of the spirit of man, that it is 'breath', it has no ability to speak, think, hear or see, without the function of the body in which it is formed.  Without the body it simply goes back to God for safe keeping until the day of the resurrection of the body, when both will be united when the body is transformed into a body suitable for the sphere in which it is to live: like unto Christ's resurrection body; Who was flesh and bones and not a spirit. (Luke 24:39)

* Body and spirit in combination becomes a living soul. (Genesis 2:7)

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

 


Offline Cariad

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Re: The grave
« Reply #55 on: November 24, 2017, 01:19:02 PM »
'Verily, verily, I say unto you,
The hour is coming, and now is,
when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God:
and they that hear shall live.'

(Joh 5:25) 

This verse refers to a specific time, as the words, 'the hour,' indicate.  The potential for it to be, indeed, 'now is', was there. All that was necessary for it's fulfilment was the repentance of the nation of Israel (Acts 3:21), which did not occur, and awaits a future day. (see Ezek.37 & Isa.26:19)

I quote this, for I anticipate that perhaps someone will challenge me about it's reference to the dead hearing the voice of the Son of God.  The title the Son of God, refers to the resurrected Christ, and so our Lord was referring to a time beyond His crucifixion and anticipated His resurrection.

'Thus saith the Lord God unto these bones;
'Behold, I will cause breath to enter unto you, and ye shall live:
and I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you,
and cover you with skin,
and put breath in you, and ye shall live;
and ye shall know that I am the Lord.'

'Behold, O My People,
I will open your graves,
and cause you to come up out of your graves,
and bring you into the land of Israel.
And ye shall know that I am the Lord,
when I have opened your graves, O My People,
and brought you up out of your graves,
and shall put My spirit in you, and ye shall live,
and I shall place you in your own land: ......

(Ezek.37)

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad