Author Topic: The grave  (Read 1615 times)

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Offline davetaff

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Re: The grave
« Reply #40 on: November 22, 2017, 11:47:12 AM »
Hi Rose
Thank you for your post I enjoyed reading it.

I would like to take up another aspect of this subject what happens to the sinner if those who are in Christ go directly to heaven and the sinner go's to hell and is tormented.

If the sinner is being tormented in hell what is the day of judgement if the sinner has already been judged and punished.

If judgement is a future event then it would be unfair of God to punish sinners without them being judged is Gods judgement like having a fair trial.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Rose Anna

Re: The grave
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2017, 12:13:01 PM »
Hi Rose
Thank you for your post I enjoyed reading it.

I would like to take up another aspect of this subject what happens to the sinner if those who are in Christ go directly to heaven and the sinner go's to hell and is tormented.

If the sinner is being tormented in hell what is the day of judgement if the sinner has already been judged and punished.

If judgement is a future event then it would be unfair of God to punish sinners without them being judged is Gods judgement like having a fair trial.

Love and Peace
Dave

I'm not sure if you were asking this in general, or in relation to my post.@davetaff
Only I didn't mention anything at all about people being tormented in  hell, as a form of judgement.
Just that there maybe people who reject Christ and even at the grave.

     :D People are tormented on the earth but there is hope for them.

 I like to think there is hope at the grave and that is why I presented those scriptures.

Only traditional teaching says there is no hope. Everyone is judged and God is perfect with that. I cannot say things of how it will happen and can only share my journey into exploring the truth, knowing I can be mistaken or knowing the truth.

I am happy to have more discussions but it would be gradually. Maybe God can speak through the scriptures as they unfold.
I like to approach this as journeying into light not heat, speaking generally because I have seen many people get really het up. Not you Dave and not so much on this forum.

Offline davetaff

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Re: The grave
« Reply #42 on: November 22, 2017, 12:41:58 PM »
Hi Rose
No my post was not in reply to yours it was just me thinking we had spent quite a lot of time discussing what happens to believers at death but what about unbelievers and sinners.

My own point of view is that they sleep the same as the believer and await the resurrection to judgement.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Cariad

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Re: The grave
« Reply #43 on: November 22, 2017, 01:14:23 PM »
My apologies if any of this is incorrect. These are not absolute conclusions but based on seeking the experiences of the bible and other peoples' experiences.

There are a lot of disagreements, in considering  what happens to our spirit, when we pass away.
Experiences suggest both consciousness and sleep and the bible mentions both  as well.

'And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice,
He said, "Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit:"
and having said thus, He gave up the ghost.'

Hello @Rose Anna,

Yes, this subject does seem contentious.

As He died, our Lord committed His spirit to God The Father. 'Giving up the ghost' meaning simply to expire or die as we know.Ecclesiastes 12:7 also tells us that at death the spirit goes back to God Who gave it.  He gives to all His creatures the breath of life, (Gen.7:15; Job12:10; Job 27:3; Job 33:4), and is Himself called, 'The Father of Spirits' (Heb.12:9).

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I did say that the spirit is only Immortal when born again . It is otherwise mortal. The mortal spirit appears to outlive the body, but doesn't appear to be indestructable.

This cannot be, regarding the spirit being immortal when born again, Rose Anna, in the light of 1 Timothy 6:14-16, and 1 Corinthians 15:53-55.
 
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Fitting the description of the second death. Matthew 10:28 Ezekiel 18:20
Jude 1:12 with the analogy of an uprooted tree, with no roots. Twice dead.

Interesting verses, Rose Anna, which confirm that God is able to destroy not only the body of man but the soul.
 
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I would suggest that at the first death, the spirit goes either into the rest of the  presence of God which is a blissful sleep, or doesn't.

These  are suggestions only. It appears that the spirit cannot function without the body, and sleeps but is able to wake up. Like Samuel did. 1Samuel 28:11-15

This is a strange portion of Scripture. I believe that this was the materialisation of a deceiving spirit, impersonating Samuel, as happens with Mediums even today: and by the surprise shown by the woman herself, it was more than even she bargained for. I do not believe that the spirit which goes back to God who gave it can be called forth in this way.   

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Jesus preached to the spirits in prison. 1 Peter 3:19-20

These are the fallen angels of Genesis 6:2 & 4 in the days of Noah: for they were imprisoned and reserved unto judgement.

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There are scriptures on the sleeping as well. Only sleeping depends on how. Jesus said:-
 
And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. Luke 8:52
And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway. Luke 8:55
Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.John 11:11
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 2 Peter 3:4
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:2

Interesting verses, Rose Anna.

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(The latter could even refer to the redeemed. If you connect with 1 Corinthians 3:15 kjv "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." Other versions describe as escaping fire.).

You link Dan 12:2 with 1 Cor.3:15 here, I don't quite understand your meaning.  See John 5:28-29 and Acts 24:15.

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An example could be Solomon who is likely to have eternal life but has losses, due to his rebellion after being warned twice.
Yet David on the other hand was a man after the heart of God, after repentance from wildly going astray.

Interesting, you are referring to the words of 1 Cor.3:15 aren't you? making a comparison with Solomon and David, I shall look this up.

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Back to the topic.
Some scriptures on awakening from death.

Acts 9:36-44
Peter made everyone leave the room.
He knelt and prayed. Then he turned toward the body and said, Tabitha, get up!
Tabitha opened her eyes, saw Peter, and sat up. Peter took her hand and helped her stand up.
After he called the believers, especially the widows, he presented Tabitha to them. She was alive.

Yes, she was brought back to life again, her spirit returned to her body and she awoke from death.

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Now this has intrigued me:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.   
John 5:25
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice. John 5:28

It could be claimed that that is the power of awakening to the resurrection. Could it also refer to consciousness, I wonder prior to that.

I don't think so, Rose Anna.  For this refers to a definite time, 'the hour is coming, and now is'.  Because had the nation repented, 'all that the prophets had spoken', would have been fulfilled, according to Acts 3:21, including the resurrection foretold in Ezek.37 and Isa.26:19 and chapter. It is the voice of the resurrected Son of God which will awaken them, and no other.

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While existing as we do, it is known that our thoughts come from the brain, our hearing from our ears and seeing with our eyes.
How do we perceive thoughts, words sound and sight without the body? Through our spirit, heart, mind which is metaphysical and not explained in tangible form, or by science. Yet is there and the main part of us, that loses the barriers of the body and physical world, on death. Yet needs the body to function and probably cannot do much  but to sleep for thousands of years.

The spirit is the breath of life, it goes back to God Who gave it.  It has no form, for like God Himself, is spirit, isn't it?

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Experiences of others have described seeing their own body at death experiences. The  manifestations of ghosts, are said to be cold because of the energy they need to manifest, which makes the area cold. These are spirits in consciousness, and not in sleep at the time.

I do not believe that any paranormal manifestation is human, but is the activity of deceiving spirits.

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Coming back to this.
The promise of eternity starts when we are born again and the abundance of life. Yet I look upon that being perfected, at the better resurrection. Hebrews 11:40

We have the promise of eternal life now, it's fulfilment takes place when this mortal puts on immortality at the resurrection of the dead.

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The departing from the body is the intermediate stage, and seems to be  asleep but in the Lord's presence.

There is no intermediate stage as far as I can see, we fall asleep in death, and awake to resurrection life.  The intervening time is not known to us, for there is no consciousness in death. (Psalm 115:17)

Thank you, for all the thought processes you have produced.
With love in Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline Rose Anna

Re: The grave
« Reply #44 on: November 22, 2017, 01:22:00 PM »
There are a lot of different views regarding the death of unbelievers. I have seen the view that believers and unbelievers share the same place on death. The view also that there is a chasm between them , as illustrated by The rich man and Lazareth.

The spiritual chasm is of course  present now in the physical world but is probably more apparant/ tangible on death, where the barrier of the physical world is not present.
Of course we know that unbelievers can pass through to the open  green pastures, through the gate in their enclosed pen.

I would like to look as well to see if at death,  that chasm can be passed through, or not.

Some other things that can be considered, on this subject are the different meanings and contexts of death ,  second death, sleep and consciousness.

Its often  viewed that soul sleeps means to be unconscious and unaware. Only how?
 
In a state of non existance but stored in reserve.
Or
In the way a person can sleep through a lot of noise.  Like in ananaesthetic  but wake up at the end. Or have the capacity to wake up to consciousness any time ,in extreme deep sleep.
For surely the spirit is the main part of the person, and the body the outer shell. As in example the believers spirit is willing and the flesh is weak.

Offline Cariad

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Re: The grave
« Reply #45 on: November 22, 2017, 01:30:21 PM »
Hi Rose
No my post was not in reply to yours it was just me thinking we had spent quite a lot of time discussing what happens to believers at death but what about unbelievers and sinners.

My own point of view is that they sleep the same as the believer and await the resurrection to judgement.

Love and Peace
Dave

Yes, I agree, Dave, yet unbelievers are not spoken of as sleeping in death as believers are, for only believers have the hope of being raised to life eternal, only over them death has no victory.  Though all will be raised to judgement, which brings with it the possibility of the second death. The believer will not come into condemnation (Rom. 8:1).  They will come before Christ to be judged only in regard to their subsequent service or manner of life, of what manner it is: with reward for faithfulness and enduring to the end being the object, and not condemnation.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline Rose Anna

Re: The grave
« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2017, 01:47:42 PM »
I do not have time to answer at length @Cariad.

None of this was to challenge you at all  but to express thoughts that are true to myself.

Maybe I should have said we have the imperishable seed. The treasure inside the jars of clay

As God alone is immortal and immortality ( eternal life) is a gift. Romans 2:7
I am merely exploring this topic and they are not my final conclusions.

As you know I have already found that the second death, is not to continue in an eternal existance of death. How can it be at the time  when death will be swallowed up in victory.
Im rushing so please excuse any waffle.
Hope you understand.

There is a resurrection for the unjust, but how can they have the imperishable seed if not in Christ.
The unjust resurrection is said to be pertaining to eternity. That is how I linked to Solomon. In that although he has eternal life he will have losses.
Although of course he may make it up another time as God is merciful

In other ways, I am exploring and please do not take what I say as my view and please excuse any miscommunications because I am very busy.

I am looking at all views and seeking the truth. That does take humility to admit we can be mistaken and may sometimes take a shaking of our fixed views.

Offline Cariad

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Re: The grave
« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2017, 02:14:04 PM »
Hello Rose Anna,

I did not take your response as directed to me personally, I was just glad that you responded.  I hope that my reply did not give the impression that I was challenging your points either. It is good to be able to discuss these things openly.

With love to you, and all who have taken part,
In Christ Jesus
Cariad