Author Topic: The grave  (Read 1613 times)

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Offline davetaff

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Re: The grave
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2017, 03:57:53 PM »
Hi
Moving on I would like us to consider these wise words from brother Paul

1Th 4:13  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
1Th 4:15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.     


Paul uses the phrase " sleep in Jesus " if we sleep in Jesus then it must mean we are not conscious of anything, he also uses the phrase
"  dead in Christ shall rise first" If we are dead in Christ we cannot have any conscious recollection of being in Heaven.
It seams to me death and sleep are one and the same having said that not to sure what the second death is most lightly a more permanent state.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline francis drake

Re: The grave
« Reply #25 on: November 19, 2017, 08:40:57 PM »
Hi Frances
Thanks for your reply but I think you are adding words to the verse that aren't there.
Here's the scripture you posted Dave.
Ecc 12:7  Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
It says the spirit returns to God who gave it.
 Although I disagree, many Christians insist that the Holy Spirit wasn't given till Pentecost. Not sure where you stand on that, but if its true, then Ecclesiastes cannot possibly be referring the Holy Spirit but the human spirit.
If you still insist that Ecc12v7 refers to the Holy Spirit, what was Pentecost about if everyone already has the Holy Spirit?
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and I don't believe the human spirit is the Holy Spirit other wise everyone would have had it from the beginning which is nonsense.
I never said the human spirit is the Holy Spirit.
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Lets look at a few verses

Gen 2:7  And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
 Gen 6:17  And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
 Gen 7:15  And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life.
Gen 7:22  All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
 


As we can see from the above the breath of life is in all living creatures humans and animals alike so are you saying all animals go to heaven when they die.
Nope, never said that.
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The only thing that returns to God his is life giving Spirit and this was something that was with God before the creation of the world are you saying that we were all in heaven before creation.
Nope, never said that either.
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As for
Ecc 12:7  Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it   

If we read it as it is and don't add anything to it, it jest means God takes back his life giving Spirit.
Hahaha caught you Dave, doing what you accused me of in your first sentence, adding words to scripture. It doesn't say "life giving", you put that there.

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Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Cariad

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Re: The grave
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2017, 09:03:40 PM »
'His breath goeth forth,
He returns to his earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish'

(Psa.146:4)

Hello again,

The verse above is very clear as to what happens to man at death.

'The living know that they shall die,
But the dead know not anything'

(Ecc.9:5)

* The spirit that goes back to God who gave it is, 'the breath of life', not some ethereal entity that can have a form of existence outside of the body.  It is the Body energised by the breath of life (spirit) which is a living soul.  Only at resurrection does the believer receive a spiritual body like unto our Lord's own resurrection body.  Only then does the believer enter into eternal life.  Until then our life is hid with Christ in God.  When He appears in glory, so too will we appear with Him there (Col.3:3,4).

In Christ Jesus
Cariad
 

Offline Cariad

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Re: The grave
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2017, 10:59:02 AM »
Visiting heaven is not deception @Cariad.

Ephesians 3:14 and 15 "For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named."
How can there be any family in heaven if they somehow remain in the grave?

Heaven is occupied by those who know Him as 'Father', and are called 'sons of God', namely the angelic host.  The word, 'family' is the Greek word, 'Patria', which refers to fatherhood, it is also plural, and therefore refers to more than one company.  God is Father to more than one part of His creation.

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1 Thessalonians 4:14 ?For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.?
When Jesus returns, God will bring those who ?sleep in Jesus? WITH HIM. Amen! The only way for God to bring those saints WITH HIM means that they were already WITH HIM in Heaven. Those who die in the Lord are asleep in Jesus, but their soul and spirit are in Heaven with the Lord.

If you look at the context, you will see that those who are asleep in Christ (the dead) shall be raised first to meet the Lord in the air (1 Thess.4:16), to be joined by 'those that remain' (the living). They will then return with Him to the earth (1 Thess 4:14)

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Philippians 3:20 ?For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ.?
How can our citizenship be in heaven, if on death we remain in the grave?

As one who is born from above, by God's grace, my citizenship is in heaven, where Christ is: when He appears in glory I will appear there with Him; until then, should I die, I will sleep in Him.

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2 Corinthians 5:8, ?We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.?
How can anyone be present with the Lord if we remain in the grave?

This was dealt with in a previous post. To be with the Lord, was Paul's desire, yet it required the Lord's return for that to be, for corruption must put on incorruption, mortality must put on immortality. A spiritual body is required, and that is not ours until resurrection.

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Luke 23:43 Jesus answered him, (the thief on the cross) "To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."
If we remain in the grave, then Jesus lied.

Of course not. The Lord Himself did not ascend into heaven until more than forty days after this was spoken: the words, 'I say unto thee today', was not referring to the time when His promise to the thief would find fulfillment, but to the day upon which the words were spoken.  They were spoken to give gravity to the promise.  Paradise is associated with the New Jerusalem, and the Kingdom of God yet to come; it is there that the Lord and the thief will be together. That is what is promised.  The thief is still awaiting resurrection.

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Lk16v22One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham?s bosom. And the rich man also died and was buried. 23In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he cried out, ?Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.??
On one day, both the beggar and the rich man died. Each then went to a very different destination, neither going into soul sleep in the grave.

Our Lord was not teaching here, and this is not a parable, He is simply highlighting the ludicrous nature of the teaching of the Pharasees, to whom He spoke.  The context makes reference to the teaching of the Old Testament, which if compared with the content of Luke 16:19-31, would show that it's content is not in harmony with the testimony of the Word of God in general. Which is what the Lord seeks to illustrate. The Pharisees teaching was a denial of what was written. This requires a careful study which can't be achieved in this small space.f.d.

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Exodus24v9Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of lapis lazuli, as bright blue as the sky. 11But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank.
Here we see the patriarchs ascending to heaven to the throne of God.

This is not what we see at all.  They ascend to the mountain top, and there they see the vision so described: the words, 'they saw God, and did eat and drink', was an expression of amazement that they had seen God and yet still lived to tell the tale. 'He laid not His hand on them', were the words preceding these.

They did not leave the mountain top, and did not approach God, only Moses was allowed to do that.(Exons.24:2)

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Paul makes it clear that it was 14 years ago that he was caught up into Paradise. The language used is direct and does not allow a future vision.It seems to me @Cariad, that you believe yourself to be the only one willing to let the word of God be the final arbiter.

Paul refers to visions only, He did not ascend into heaven.  The words of John makes that clear in John 3:13.

This has been a mammoth task for me, working on a Kindle, I hope I have been clear.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: The grave
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2017, 11:46:14 AM »
Hi Frances
you said
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.If you still insist that Ecc12v7 refers to the Holy Spirit, what was Pentecost about if everyone already has the Holy Spirit     

Where on earth did you get that idea I am saying the exact opposite I think you need to read my posts a little slower.

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.  I never said the human spirit is the Holy Spirit   

No but you imply it when you say people are born again before Pentecost the only way we can be born again is by the spirit and with fire and the first time this happens was at Pentecost.

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.Hahaha caught you Dave, doing what you accused me of in your first sentence, adding words to scripture. It doesn't say "life giving", you put that there.     

Guilty as charged but I was only trying to point out the difference between the Holy Spirit and the life giving spirit given to all living creatures I did this using the scriptures which you seam to ignore.

Love and Peace
Dave


Offline Devonboy

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Re: The grave
« Reply #29 on: November 20, 2017, 12:23:51 PM »
Philippians 1.
 21 For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, 26 so that through my being with you again your boasting in Christ Jesus will abound on account of me.


I admit that I am simple minded but it would appear from the above that Paul believed that once he departed this life he would be with his Saviour.

Offline Cariad

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Re: The grave
« Reply #30 on: November 20, 2017, 04:29:07 PM »
Philippians 1.
 21 For to me, to live is Christ  to die is gain. 22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, 26 so that through my being with you again your boasting in Christ Jesus will abound on account of me.


I admit that I am simple minded but it would appear from the above that Paul believed that once he departed this life he would be with his Saviour.

This is not an either/or situation, @Devonboy.  The desire to depart and be with Christ is indeed far better than either living or dying.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline Devonboy

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Re: The grave
« Reply #31 on: November 20, 2017, 04:43:02 PM »
This is not an either/or situation, @Devonboy.  The desire to depart and be with Christ is indeed far better than either living or dying.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Agree, and it would appear that Paul did not think that he was going to sleep when he departed this world but be with his Lord.