Author Topic: Is Elijah amongst us? How would you know?  (Read 313 times)

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Offline John

Re: Is Elijah amongst us? How would you know?
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2017, 06:24:45 PM »

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Francis,
           I said elsewhere,
No word of knowledge has the authority of scripture.

No prophetic message has the authority of scripture.

Both the above are to be evaluated by how they conform to scripture and rejected if they don't.

How else is someone to know that God is speaking to him/her?

Paul commended the bereans, because they checked what they were being taught with the scriptures. He also compl;ained about the corinthians readiness to accept a different Jesus and a different spirit from what he taught.

I check what I am taught or told by scripture, I do not believe every message just because someone says it is from God.
You say I have maintain a tirade against the spirit. That is false. I have maintained what I've posted here that scripture is the judge of any 'voice' or message.

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Offline francis drake

Re: Is Elijah amongst us? How would you know?
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2017, 10:54:26 PM »
Francis,
           I said elsewhere,
No word of knowledge has the authority of scripture.
Chapter and verse John please!
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No prophetic message has the authority of scripture.
Chapter and verse John please!
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Both the above are to be evaluated by how they conform to scripture and rejected if they don't.
There you go again John, putting your biblical scholarship above what the spirit might say.
I have never heard you say a good or encouraging word about the ministry of the Holy Spirit today. Everything is negative and discouraging. You never cease spreading fear and doubt about the work of the Holy Spirit today.

I love the scriptures, but it is unbiblical scaremongering to claim every prophetic word etc must be assessed against scripture. That might be true if it comes to doctrine, but there is a whole universe of prophetic wisdom out there that has nothing whatsoever to do with doctrine.
ie.-
When and where to move house.
How to buy that house when you don't have the cash.
Advance warning of a car crash.
Being told of a new job.
Finding a wife.
Finding an unknown person that God sends you to meet.
Where to go for fellowship in a completely strange town.
Discerning when you are being led into a trap.
Being told where and how much to give financially when you are flat broke.
Being told what machinery to buy in business.
Being directed to start a business.
Being told very specifically to employ certain people.

John, these are just random examples amongst many many thousands where God has spoken or given visions to my wife or I directly or via others.
Please advise me what scriptures would accurately guide me in each of the above, especially the car crash, where God warned me maybe 30 seconds before it happened, thus saving my life!

To insist that we should use the scriptures to confirm all prophetic words is clearly advice coming from a man of little or no experience.

The bible is full of examples where God gave direct personal guidance to people, without sending them back to check the scriptures. In fact, the notion of people personally owning a scriptures is very modern idea.


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How else is someone to know that God is speaking to him/her?
Definitely not via the bible!! Go look at Samuel's example, did he rush to the scriptures when God first spoke to him? Did those words even need such confirmation?

That's one of the most important truths! Otherwise how would God speak to those who never had a bible!! People throughout the world have heard God speak to them, to limit such things to using the scriptures is ignoring present day facts, history, and the bible.
Like millions of others, both my wife and I heard God speak when we were children, but never read a bible till adulthood.

Sadly, arrogant Christians are the worst offenders when it comes to listening to God. They are so obsessed by their bibles, that they are deaf to the very author of that bible. When it comes to teaching people to hear God speak, its far easier to do it with non Christians, they have much less religious baggage.
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Paul commended the bereans, because they checked what they were being taught with the scriptures. He also complained about the corinthians readiness to accept a different Jesus and a different spirit from what he taught.

In every discussion of the subject, you hang your coat on the Bereans, but that was one specific issue whether the Messiah would die and rise again. It wasn't a general commandment for every word spoken from God.
Interestingly, that Bereans proves my point. They already had those scriptures, but didn't take any notice because they believed they their teachers, just like Christians today, just like those who listen to your teachings against the Spirit!
I challenge you to prove your point without using the Bereans!
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I check what I am taught or told by scripture, I do not believe every message just because someone says it is from God.
You say I have maintain a tirade against the spirit. That is false. I have maintained what I've posted here that scripture is the judge of any 'voice' or message.

John, without the Holy Spirit, it is impossible to understand scripture. Otherwise it is just dead words and interpreted by dead human wisdom.
The reason the disciples got so much wrong about Jesus was because they didn't always listen to what the Holy Spirit was telling them. Like most Christians, they hung onto traditional a understanding of their scriptures.

It is therefore the primacy of the Holy Spirit that has to be our guide, not the bible alone. The two must walk hand in hand.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline davetaff

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Re: Is Elijah amongst us? How would you know?
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2017, 03:34:44 PM »
Hi Frances
Hope you don't mind a quick question The list of things God has spoken to you above only concern yourself and don't seam to have any thing to do with anyone else.
What I would like to ask dose God ever tell you thing that lie outside of scripture or contrary to it.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline francis drake

Re: Is Elijah amongst us? How would you know?
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2017, 07:36:23 PM »
Hi Frances
Hope you don't mind a quick question The list of things God has spoken to you above only concern yourself and don't seam to have any thing to do with anyone else.
What I would like to ask dose God ever tell you thing that lie outside of scripture or contrary to it.

By outside of scripture, I presume you mean theological things that appear not to be referred to in scripture.
That being the case, the answer is yes, I have received revelations not directly mentioned in scripture.

It was a powerful dream where I was woken by the audible voice of God. It extended existing revelation from scripture and explained a whole load of stuff.
And yes, I was able to verify it by extrapolating from scripture.

I shall fill you in when I have a bit more time
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline John

Re: Is Elijah amongst us? How would you know?
« Reply #20 on: February 13, 2017, 10:06:42 AM »
Thank you Francis, you just made my case. That prophercies are subject to scripture.

I'll post what I was going to post any way.

You ask for references, I shouldn't need to supply them. You should be well aware of them.

1 Cor 14 v 29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. 31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged. 32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.
and
36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord?s command.

A prophetic message is to be examined, by what, if it is not scripture.
We see that prophetic messages/ word of knowledge etc are not equal to the bible.
If they were then
 2 Tim 3 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Would not apply, rather it would talk about listening for the spirits prompting.
As you know well, it is God who opens the blind eyes of nonchrisdtians, who enables stone hearts to become flesh and love and serve their God.
This happens through the intervention of the Spirit. God saves men.
You complain about wolves in sheeps clothing in organised churches, what about the wolves in sheeps clothing in house churches etc
How is a Christian to evaluate prophetic messages from God if those same messages are not scrutinised by the rule of scripture?

Offline francis drake

Re: Is Elijah amongst us? How would you know?
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2017, 03:47:10 PM »
Thank you Francis, you just made my case. That prophercies are subject to scripture.
Hehe, nobody has made your case John, cos it doesn't exist. Nevertheless I do enjoy sparring with you my brother! You are a true friend even if we disagree on many things.
Same with Dave T.
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I'll post what I was going to post any way.
No chance of anything I say stopping you!
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You ask for references, I shouldn't need to supply them. You should be well aware of them.
Despite regular contention John, you had to my recollection never given any scriptures to back your words. That's why I kept asking.
Good choice of scriptures though, but they help me more than you John. Prophecy, visions words etc should always be weighed/discerned by the body as a whole, and not just the man at the front.
Nobody is perfect, and on rare occasions I have heard some weird stuff come out, but no less weird than some of the false teachings by bible scholars though. That's why the gifts of the Spirit were given to the body as a whole, not just to some super-duper man at the front, (and his buddies)

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1 Cor 14 v 29 Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. 30 And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop.
The above should indicate the sore lack in today's church. Where are the prophets today? The simple fact is that they have been banished by fear mongers!
The above tells us that there were two or three prophets speaking in turn, plus others equally able to discern the veracity of the words, plus others sitting down who could interject if necessary.
That's a fair number of prophetic men or women in Paul's typical assembly.
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31 For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.
Now look at that. You can all prophecy..........
Sorry pal, we banned that years ago! Theology is far more important than what the Spirit says!
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32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.
This means that my gifting should be subject to the other prophetic members, which is vital as it requires a prophetic minister to walk in humility.
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36 Or did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached? 37 If anyone thinks they are a prophet or otherwise gifted by the Spirit, let them acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord?s command.
In v36, the reference to the Word of God (Logos) is a reference to Jesus (The Logos), not the bible.
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A prophetic message is to be examined, by what, if it is not scripture.
This assertion is completely without foundation John. Certainly scripture comes into it, but its prime reference is to the Holy Spirit as discerned by fellow prophets.
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We see that prophetic messages/ word of knowledge etc are not equal to the bible.
If they were then
 2 Tim 3 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Perfectly true but not relevant to your case.
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Would not apply, rather it would talk about listening for the spirits prompting.
Of course the words in Timothy apply, but they apply in equal measure to the voice of the Holy Spirit through the gifts, as this word from Paul demonstrates.
1Tim1v18Timothy, my son, I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well,
Here Paul is commanding Timothy to take heed of prophecies he had been given. If your claim applied, Paul would merely tell him to get stuck into his bible.

And below, why does Paul say, "The Spirit clearly says.....", instead of "The bible clearly says......"
1Tim4v1The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

And v13. to prove I am not being partisan.-
13Until I come, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture, to preaching and to teaching.
Followed of course by v14.
14Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through prophecy when the body of elders laid their hands on you.
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As you know well, it is God who opens the blind eyes of nonchrisdtians, who enables stone hearts to become flesh and love and serve their God.
This happens through the intervention of the Spirit. God saves men.
Amen and thank God. But if his Spirit can bring the truth to blind eyes long before they see a bible, why are you so hostile to the gifts of the Spirit when they become Christians?
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You complain about wolves in sheeps clothing in organised churches, what about the wolves in sheeps clothing in house churches etc
Indeed you are right John. But whether house or institutional church, those wolves are not just prophet wolves, they are your bible teacher wolves in even greater number.
Bible teaching wolves are in greater number at the same proportion that teachers far outnumber prophets, ie. maybe 100 to 1.
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How is a Christian to evaluate prophetic messages from God if those same messages are not scrutinised by the rule of scripture?
Ultimately, whether its prophetic words, or teaching of scripture, both can be abused by false teachers and false prophets.

I am sure you know that scriptural truth can only be spiritually discerned. Therefore it all comes down to discernment, and that requires each and every believer to grow up into maturity, not just scholarship.

At the beginning, you made the mistake of using scriptures I always quote to prove the necessity of the gifts in an assembly.
You started at v29, now lets look at the ones you left out.
1Cor14v26What then shall we say, brothers and sisters? When you come together, each of you has a hymn, or a word of instruction, a revelation, a tongue or an interpretation. Everything must be done so that the church may be built up. 27If anyone speaks in a tongue, two?or at the most three?should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God.

According to Paul, each and every member of an assembly is called to participate. The idea of one man controlling it from the front has no scriptural basis.
All members contribute using the gifts of the Holy Spirit as the Lord leads. Everyone is edified and everyone learns. Church was never meant to be a concert acted at the front, with the occasional audience participation in a sing song.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline John

Re: Is Elijah amongst us? How would you know?
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2017, 12:46:23 PM »
Francis,
              I'm not hostile, that is your interpretation of what I've written.
I've maintained all the time that scripture is the rule by which everything is judged. It is what the bible teaches, it is what you practise, or so I understand what you've written.
I stick by the scripture because we all have that. Anyone can make a claim that their prophetic message is backed by other prophetic messages, unless we have those messages we don't know anything about them and if they are written down, then a new scriptual source has been started and if they are in contentsion?

Historically it was this sort of conflict that caused prophercy to fall into a bad reputation and disuse.

 

Offline francis drake

Re: Is Elijah amongst us? How would you know?
« Reply #23 on: February 18, 2017, 10:27:15 PM »
Francis,
              I'm not hostile, that is your interpretation of what I've written.
John, if there is even one single post of yours displaying encouragement towards the prophetic ministry, please prove me wrong by leading me to it.
Until you can prove otherwise, I think hostility is a very good description of your approach to the gifts.
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I've maintained all the time that scripture is the rule by which everything is judged. It is what the bible teaches, it is what you practise, or so I understand what you've written.
You quoted 1Cor14v36 to prove that prophecy should be judged by scripture, but that is not what it says at all, as I pointed out last time..
Prophecy is judged by discernment of those who also move in the spirit, ie. other prophets in the assembly.
It is also judged if necessary, by the scriptures.
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I stick by the scripture because we all have that.
Again a wrong assertion John, until recent times few people had the scriptures.
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Anyone can make a claim that their prophetic message is backed by other prophetic messages, unless we have those messages we don't know anything about them and if they are written down, then a new scriptual source has been started and if they are in contentsion?
I've taken your above statement and simply changed it from prophecy to teaching to show how useless an argument it is.
Anyone can make a claim that their teaching is backed by other teaching, unless we have those teachings written down we don't know anything about them............
Everything you say against prophecy applies just the same to bible teachers.
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Historically it was this sort of conflict that caused prophercy to fall into a bad reputation and disuse.
No John, since the early church the prophetic ministry has always been crushed by the faithlessness of theologians. Then you have the gall to blame prophetic people for causing conflict.
Prophetic voices have been an infinitesimally small proportion of the church, yet the church has a history of in fighting and slaughter caused entirely by bible teachers with different theological viewpoints.

The church has never needed the prophetic ministry to cause division, you manage to do it entirely by yourselves via your theologians. Go on try denying it!

Finally John, you still haven't addressed the answers I gave to your previous post. They disproved most of what you said there.

Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

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