Author Topic: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans  (Read 1059 times)

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Cariad

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #80 on: June 08, 2017, 10:15:47 PM »
'... That in the dispensation of the fulness of times
He might gather together in one all things in Christ,
which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in Him.'

(Eph.1:10)

Concerning this second question, related to the verse above, Dave: 'He might gather together in one', = 'to sum up', or 'Head up', - 'in Himself', compare Eph.1:5 & 9. 'Heaven' = 'the heavens' (plural).

Ephesians 1:7-11, concerns the work of the Son and His inheritance in the Church which is His Body.
' ... all things' = the all things (the redeemed, and the heavenly beings who are part of the inheritance). God will head up 'the all things' in Christ, who is Head of the Church of the One Body, and also Head of all principality and power.

The sphere of the Church of the One Body is in heavenly places, where Christ sits at God's right hand. This company is potentially 'seated together' there now, in God's estimation; in anticipation of the day when they will be manifested with Him in glory (Col.3:1-4; Eph.2:6).

Every spiritual family, in heaven and on earth, will be headed up in Him ultimately.(Col 3:11) (1Cor.15:28)

Sorry this is a bit garbled. Rushing.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #81 on: June 10, 2017, 05:41:01 PM »
'... That in the dispensation of the fulness of times
He might gather together in one all things in Christ,
which are in heaven, and which are on earth, even in Him.'

(Eph.1:10)

Concerning this second question, related to the verse above, Dave: 'He might gather together in one', = 'to sum up', or 'Head up', - 'in Himself', compare Eph.1:5 & 9. 'Heaven' = 'the heavens' (plural).

Ephesians 1:7-11, concerns the work of the Son and His inheritance in the Church which is His Body.
' ... all things' = the all things (the redeemed, and the heavenly beings who are part of the inheritance). God will head up 'the all things' in Christ, who is Head of the Church of the One Body, and also Head of all principality and power.

The sphere of the Church of the One Body is in heavenly places, where Christ sits at God's right hand. This company is potentially 'seated together' there now, in God's estimation; in anticipation of the day when they will be manifested with Him in glory (Col.3:1-4; Eph.2:6).

Every spiritual family, in heaven and on earth, will be headed up in Him ultimately.(Col 3:11) (1Cor.15:28)

Sorry this is a bit garbled. Rushing.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Hi Chris
Thank you for your replies very informative unfortunately it's raised another question in my mind hope you don't mind  it concerns the church and the children of God if the Church is the Woman the bride of Christ who are the children is the church the children or is it two separate groups

Luk 20:36  Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Rom 8:16  The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
   


You Said
Quote
The sphere of the Church of the One Body is in heavenly places, where Christ sits at God's right hand. This company is potentially 'seated together' there now, in God's estimation; in anticipation of the day when they will be manifested with Him in glory (Col.3:1-4; Eph.2:6).

When you say the Body is in heavenly places does it mean the children are still on earth awaiting the resurrection I ask this because.

1Co 3:2  I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
Heb 5:13  For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
1Pe 2:2  As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:


I think  there are many that remain on milk and remain children of God but are they part of the Body the church.

Love and Peace
Dave





 

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #82 on: June 11, 2017, 01:25:27 AM »
 
Quote
the church and the children of God if the Church is the Woman the bride of Christ who are the children is the church the children or is it two separate groups

It is taking metaphors way beyond where they should go - metaphors in scripture are short lived and only last a short time [as you know God is not an eagle or a gate] it is a simple way of presenting an image that speak many words] " a short key"

Here in the latest study I give an example of how God ends a metaphor - having given a literal example and another literal [yet spiritaul example] and then relays it to Jerusalem's mount - but then goes on to convey an eternal perspective conveying yet another image of an eternal spiritual example @ PSALM 133, THE ANOINTING OF UNITY

Here God shows you how metaphors end and how they relate.....  ! [as being short lived and simply conveying a simple short message]

At the same time we are given a metaphor of being children of God we are also told to stop being like infants being tossed by the wind and to stop feeding on milk but to become adults - and at the same time although we find a Bride metaphor we are also told that women are not permitted to speak in /as / the Church [now I have brought your argument back to you from another topic "where we are not permitted to speak]  ' @ What is heaven like?

You see God is clearly showing you - when metaphors stop and when /how /why they are used.


Again and again God shows us how metaphors are broken and God gives us numerous examples - indeed God can also be seen as a mother and a wife - Paul knew this through his revelations of heaven and the Old testament conveys God as anything from a door to a mother hovering over her chicks  in Matthew 23:37 - so now extending this metaphor beyond where it should go we have a mother married to a bride/daughter/  ! indeed a immoral relationship.

In the same way visions and dreams are short lived and only last as long as the person cares to remember them and once the message is conveyed to the recipients.

1 Corinthians 13:10-12 but when the perfect comes, the partial passes away. 11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I set aside childish ways. 12 Now we see but a dim reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully know.

Here you see the child metaphor broken before it begins...

The Bride metaphor only works as per "as long as you both do live" and even then it only conveys a message in this day and age as long as the two [one body] stay together.

This metaphor related to people in biblical times may not relate to many people in this age [of time] and God may well speak to them in other ways [indeed the Bride metaphor in this day and age may well speak in a negative sense]

Indeed in heaven their are neither male nor female as in Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Here the wife metaphor is broken instantly with this scripture...



As for children - there should not be any children in heaven - or in the eyes of God as we have grown and become adults in God - not being blown around by the windand tossed around by any old teaching [if we are then we surely are not following God]

https://www.1faith.co.uk/?topic=9735.msg64722#new
https://www.1faith.co.uk/?topic=9736.msg64732;topicseen#msg64732

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #83 on: June 11, 2017, 02:09:17 AM »
I might suggest that metaphors are the milk of the bible - as visions and dreams are the milk to draw infants to their mother...

They are merely ways of drawing people to God/Himself/ Matthew 13:13 - Isaiah 6:9 - Mark 4:12

Here Jesus gave simple /basic/stories/ parables/ [like reading a book to an infant - as if to wean them / before bed time]

But they did not understand and did not be drawn to their Mother.

I convey simple images /given by God/ to draw people to God/ my gifting is basic and simple/ nothing new.

These things are simple /short lived/images/ as if through a picture story book - to draw an infant that they might become adult. [as in heavenly places their is no age]

My word of knowledge is simply God speaking through me [as an adult] it is simply imagery that only lasts for a short time and then fades.


Offline Tes Johnson

Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #84 on: June 11, 2017, 03:15:16 AM »
The Father metaphor does not speak at all to some people

Neither does the Mother image.


Indeed neither does the child metaphor.

You see now that metaphors are limited and only speak into lives when they are relevant.

And that all metaphors are temporary and are indeed stopped by God again and again in scripture and no longer have any relevance. they are but imagery to speak to us in our lifes now [but are not always relevant]

Or used only  to speak into lives in their [scriptural time]and not to the general population in times [future]

Some may spend their lives as singles and have lived with no parental  oversight/insight/encouragemen/mentor  or parental gaurdian/guidance/oportunity/ and have no realtionship with these general metaphors.



Offline davetaff

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #85 on: June 11, 2017, 04:14:25 PM »
Hi TJ
Thank you for your replies not sure that I understand everything your saying but would like to ask you about this you said.

Quote
At the same time we are given a metaphor of being children of God we are also told to stop being like infants being tossed by the wind and to stop feeding on milk but to become adults - and at the same time although we find a Bride metaphor we are also told that women are not permitted to speak in /as / the Church [now I have brought your argument back to you from another topic "where we are not permitted to speak]  ' @ What is heaven like?

Why do you think God saying we are his children is a metaphor why can't it be a true statement of fact and you say the bride is a metaphor but surely the bride we are talking about is the church the body of Christ again a true fact not a metaphor.
As for the woman not speaking I believe this may be a reference to  the church the woman should not speak on her own or preach her own doctrines or theology but only preach what the lord has spoken the thing written in the scriptures Christ speaks through the church.
Although Paul speaks of a man and a woman I believe that the man and woman that he gets the idea from is Christ and his church.

love and peace
Dave
 

 

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #86 on: June 12, 2017, 12:44:54 AM »
Hi TJ
Thank you for your replies not sure that I understand everything your saying but would like to ask you about this you said.

Why do you think God saying we are his children is a metaphor why can't it be a true statement of fact and you say the bride is a metaphor but surely the bride we are talking about is the church the body of Christ again a true fact not a metaphor.
As for the woman not speaking I believe this may be a reference to  the church the woman should not speak on her own or preach her own doctrines or theology but only preach what the lord has spoken the thing written in the scriptures Christ speaks through the church.
Although Paul speaks of a man and a woman I believe that the man and woman that he gets the idea from is Christ and his church.

love and peace
Dave
 


Well no the Bride of Christ is simply used as a metaphor in scripture [as you know] for how could a husband be married to Jesus ?  the Groom].. well now I am gay..

The metaphor of children is also a metaphor [ how can you be a child be  married ?]

Now you are marrying a child to an adult which is paedophilia.

The body of Christ is also spoken of as the Body of Christ [another metaphor]  so now you are Christ and have all knowledge and all power.. you asre omnipresent and omniscient. [these are metaphors to convey a message to children]

This is simply Jesus the Son of God using pictures to convey messages in their tme..

You are no more a Brde "in the literal world" than I am a wife..

If I take this context and parable/metaphor/ to its ultimate conclusion / then I am a female and engaged [not married] I am yet to see all the promises and am simply hoping . [here the metaphors and pictures are like a promise given to me be no more fulfillled than a "wedding that never happens"

Here all metaphors are broken by Christ -



Offline Tes Johnson

Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #87 on: June 12, 2017, 01:05:41 AM »
All these pictures that Jesus gave  were seen in there time as examples amd pictures to people into the future .

They are not literal - but are pictures or visions/.dreams/

I hope you are not female and that you do not carry a handbag - if you do then you will submit to your husband in this metaphor - but it will only last as long as your commitment "for better or for worse and as long as you both do live"



Even then your wife may be your headnand you may find yourself submitting to her...


You tell me how you can be a child and be married and be  part of the Body of Christ at the same time.... and  yet engaged yet  a wife and husband. >?

for goodness sake how can I be a wife and husband and a child and part ofthe Body of Christ .

When mixing metaphors they will never last longer than - God breaks them.

Now being really silly "I am now a Gate and A door" - but yet I am like Paul "being all things to all people"  now I am what people want me to be and what people want to see 1 Corinthians 9:19-23  For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more. 20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; 21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. 22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. 23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.


So here different people get different pictures ?  get my drift "!

ah I have now made up another metaphor ha ha - now I am Paul...



Now I am a jew or a pharisee or maybe a woman or a man or maybe a soldier [depemding on which child I am speaking too]