Author Topic: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans  (Read 1044 times)

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Cariad

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2017, 05:19:11 PM »

... ... You may be right on the other hand could it be Israel God gave up when they rejected Jesus The reason I say this is

Paul calls them covenantbreakers as far as I'm aware God  only made covenants with Israel it was Israel who had the law only Israel could have knowledge of breaking the law and we are told in another place.

Jas 2:10  For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

So Paul lists everything that Israel dose to qualify as a law breaker the last offence was the killing of our lord which counts as murder and the penalty for that is death.

Hi Dave,(@davetaff)

I do appreciate your encouragement and it's good to get feed-back.
Quote
@davetaff:
Paul calls them covenantbreakers: as far as I'm aware God only made covenants with Israel it was Israel who had the law only Israel could have knowledge of breaking the law and we are told in another place.

* You are referring to Romans 1:31, where, within the list of, 'all unrighteousness', comes the term 'covenantbreakers'.  The word translated in this way is only used here (Gr. 'asunthetos') which simply means that they broke agreements, promises or obligations. It has no reference to the covenants God made. 

* We read in Genesis 9, of a covenant that God made with Noah and his descendants and every living creature upon the earth: never to destroy the world by means of a flood again; but it was an unconditional covenant, therefore not a covenant that they could, in any way, influence or break.

* However, At the same time God spoke, and told them to be fruitful and multiply, and replenish the earth: repeating the instruction given in Genesis 1:28. Yet in Genesis 11, the descendants of Noah had moved eastward to the valley of Shinar, and started building a city with a tower towards the heavens. They had two objectives in mind: to make a name for themselves; and to prevent them being scattered throughout the earth.  It was in this that they were disobeying God's known will for them.


'And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower,
which the children of men builded.
And the LORD said,
"Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language;
and this they begin to do:
and now nothing will be restrained from them,
which they have imagined to do.
Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language,
that they may not understand one another's speech.
So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth:
and they left off to build the city.an
Therefore is the name of it called Babel;
because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth:
and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth
.'

(Gen.1:5-9)

* Babel was the beginning of the kingdom of Nimrod (Gen.10:8-10)

* Josephus, a Jewish historian, as you will know, says that astronomy began in the household of Seth; and the tower at Babel was an attempt to preserve and hand down the antediluvian traditians; that their revelations may not be lost regarding the judgments of water and fire. Their sin was in keeping together instead of scattering themselves over the earth. The Babylonians were also a nation of stargazers, and they kept a company of men to do nothing else but report eclipses, appearances of the moon, sunspots and so on. See Isaiah 47:13 and Daniel 1:20.

* In regard to what you say about law-keeping Dave, this really has nothing to do with the gentiles, as you say: for they were never in covenant relationship and were not under the law of Moses, were they? Those laws were only given to Israel, being part of the conditional covenant made at Sinai with them alone.

* Re. your last point, remember the words of, Luke 23:34a:  'Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.'


In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #57 on: April 02, 2017, 04:22:12 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your reply not sure if I agree you said.

Quote
* You are referring to Romans 1:31, where, within the list of, 'all unrighteousness', comes the term 'covenantbreakers'.  The word translated in this way is only used here (Gr. 'asunthetos') which simply means that they broke agreements, promises or obligations. It has no reference to the covenants God made.     

Surly agreements promises or obligations amount to a covenant between two parties in this case when God made a covenant with Israel with the giving of the law both parties agreed to the terms but Israel broke there side of the agreement and became covenantbreakers.

But God is faithful and will keep his side of the covenant because all Israel will be saved.

So I say only Israel could break the law because it was only Israel who had the law and in so doing they also broke the covenant with God.

Rom 2:14  For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

It dose not mean that the gentiles could not keep the law but they would not know it because they did not have the law

 Eph 2:11  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
Eph 2:12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

We see here that the gentiles where strangers to the covenants of God so how could they be covenantbreakers.

Sorry to be a pain

Love and Peace
Dave   

Cariad

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2017, 11:43:59 PM »
Hello Dave, (@davetaff)

The breaking of covenants is not restricted to covenants with God and man: but exist between man with man too.  They were covenantbreakers. This term 'covenantbreakers' in Romans 1:31, has also nothing to do with law keeping. 

The case against the Gentiles was that they did not wish to retain the knowledge of God in their knowledge: a knowledge which creation manifested to them, and in them.  They did not glorify God Who created them, nor were they thankful, but changed the glory of God, and the truth of God, into a lie. Preferring to worship god's of their own making, worshipping and serving the creature more than the creator. That is why they are without excuse. 

God gave them up to uncleanness, before Israel as a nation was created, and way before the laws given to Israel through Moses were instituted.

So law is not the issue in relation to the words under review here.

In Christ Jesus,
Cariad


PS: You are not a pain. :D

Cariad

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #59 on: April 03, 2017, 09:32:03 AM »
'What is a man advantaged,
if he gain the the whole world,
and lose himself,
or be cast away?'

(Luke 9:25)

Hello again,

Romans 8:20 tells us that at the fall 'vanity' entered. In Ecclesiastes everything connected with Adam, and separated from the risen Christ, is pronounced to be, 'vanity and vexation of spirit.' Vanity, visible externally, was the reflection of vanity within, (Romans 1:21).

'Because that when they knew God,
they glorified Him not as God,
neither were thankful;
but became vain in their imaginations,
and their foolish heart was darkened'


* How sad this is, isn't it?  For both man and God Himself.

The word 'imagination' (dialogismos) is translated in Romans 14:1 by 'disputations': their reasonings were 'empty', 'futile', they led nowhere but to alienation from God. Ephesians 4:17,18, tells us that,

'This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord,
that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk,
in the vanity of their mind,
having the understanding darkened,
being alienated from the life of God
through the ignorance that is within them,
because of the blindness of their heart'


Jeremiah 2:5, gives us the reason for Gentile blindness,

'They are gone far from Me,
and have walked after vanity,
and are become vain.'


* What a tragedy!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #60 on: April 03, 2017, 02:42:16 PM »
Hello Dave, (@davetaff)

The breaking of covenants is not restricted to covenants with God and man: but exist between man with man too.  They were covenantbreakers. This term 'covenantbreakers' in Romans 1:31, has also nothing to do with law keeping. 

The case against the Gentiles was that they did not wish to retain the knowledge of God in their knowledge: a knowledge which creation manifested to them, and in them.  They did not glorify God Who created them, nor were they thankful, but changed the glory of God, and the truth of God, into a lie. Preferring to worship God's of their own making, worshipping and serving the creature more than the creator. That is why they are without excuse. 

God gave them up to uncleanness, before Israel as a nation was created, and way before the laws given to Israel through Moses were instituted.

So law is not the issue in relation to the words under review here.

In Christ Jesus,
Cariad


PS: You are not a pain. :D

Hi Chris
Thank you for your reply I don't think we are going to agree on this so if you wish to move on with your thread I will understand it's not a problem.
I would jest like to state my point of view if i may I believe Paul is speaking about Israel only Israel had all the knowledge Paul is speaking of.
I grant that the gentiles could have worked out that a God had created everything but which god it was they had no idea.

 In your post quoted above if you change the word Gentiles to Israelite then I agree with what you say.

In your next post you quote this.

Quote
Jeremiah 2:5, gives us the reason for Gentile blindness,

'They are gone far from Me,
and have walked after vanity,
and are become vain.'   

I don't believe this has anything to do with gentile blindness if we look at the verses before and after it seams to me that he is speaking  about Israel.

Jer 2:4  Hear ye the word of the LORD, O house of Jacob, and all the families of the house of Israel:
Jer 2:5  Thus saith the LORD, What iniquity have your fathers found in me, that they are gone far from me, and have walked after vanity, and are become vain?
Jer 2:6  Neither said they, Where is the LORD that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, that led us through the wilderness, through a land of deserts and of pits, through a land of drought, and of the shadow of death, through a land that no man passed through, and where no man dwelt?

Love and Peace
Dave

Cariad

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #61 on: April 04, 2017, 06:12:09 AM »
Hello Dave,

I agree that Jeremiah 2:5 concerns Israel, for they had erred in the same way as the Gentiles around them:  they had fallen into idolatry: and walking after vanity, they had become vain. I quoted it for one purpose, to show what had made mankind so: they had gone far from God, and this was the result.

Thank you for explaining your reason for disagreeing with me.  We must leave it with the Lord, I think, Dave.:D

In Christ Jesus
Cariad
 

Offline davetaff

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #62 on: April 04, 2017, 02:02:12 PM »
Hello Dave,

I agree that Jeremiah 2:5 concerns Israel, for they had erred in the same way as the Gentiles around them:  they had fallen into idolatry: and walking after vanity, they had become vain. I quoted it for one purpose, to show what had made mankind so: they had gone far from God, and this was the result.

Thank you for explaining your reason for disagreeing with me.  We must leave it with the Lord, I think, Dave.:D

In Christ Jesus
Cariad
Hi Chris
Thank you for reply and I agree with what you say .
 
Quote
We must leave it with the Lord, I think, Dave 

He will always lead us right won't he so if you would like to move on through this wonderful epistle please do I will wait on your lead thank you for your patients.

Love and Peace
Dave 

Cariad

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #63 on: April 05, 2017, 10:02:47 AM »
Quote
@davetaff:
Hi Chris
Thank you for your reply I don't think we are going to agree on this so if you wish to move on with your thread I will understand it's not a problem.
I would jest like to state my point of view if i may I believe Paul is speaking about Israel only Israel had all the knowledge Paul is speaking of.
I grant that the gentiles could have worked out that a God had created everything but which god it was they had no idea.

In your post quoted above if you change the word Gentiles to Israelite then I agree with what you say.

'For the invisible things of Him
from the creation of the world are clearly seen,
being understood by the things that are made,
even His eternal power and Godhead;
so that they are without excuse: ... '

(Rom. 1:20)

Hello Dave,

I am not able to move on from this at the moment, for it is important that you realise that what God is saying, through Paul, here in Romans 1:20 refers to all mankind: and not just to Israel.  The words, '... from the creation of the world ...' prove this, for the nation of Israel was not formed until many, many years had passed from that point in time.

'God, who at sundry times and in divers manners
spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son,
whom He hath appointed heir of all things,
by whom also He made the worlds; ... '

(Hebrews 1:1,2)

* Here in Hebrews chapter one, we see that God spoke to the 'Fathers' of the nation of Israel, in 'divers ways', through the prophets, and then latterly by Christ Himself.

* Prior to that, we are told in Psalm 19:1-6, that the heavens declared the glory of God: that their, 'speech', though inaudible, nevertheless spoke: and gave the knowledge of God to mankind, by the signs that the stars and planets, portrayed, as the sun moved through them, in their courses. (Psalm 19: verses 1-6 Revelation in the heavens; verses 7-14  Revelation by the written Word)

* In Luke 1:67-70  we read:-

'And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost,
and prophesied, saying,
"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel;
for He hath visited and redeemed His people,
And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us
in the house of His servant David;
As He spake by the mouth of His holy prophets,
which have been since the world began
:'


* In Acts 3:20-21, Peter says,

'And he shall send Jesus Christ,
which before was preached unto you:
Whom the heaven must receive
until the times of restitution of all things,
which God hath spoken
by the mouth of all His holy prophets
since the world began
.'


* God would have instructed Adam, after the fall, concerning the promise of the coming seed of the woman, and the redemption of mankind:  the signs of the heavens would have reflected that.  Prophets, like Enoch and Noah, and the household of Seth, would have also sounded forth the prophecy, and made the promise of God regarding redemption known. The constellations were a visible portrayal of it.  Now lost to us, and made unnecessary by the production of the written Word, through Moses record from Genesis to Deuteronomy, andby subsequent writers, at God's instruction.

* Mankind was not left without a witness, and the knowledge of God was manifest in all of creation.  Instruction regarding how God could be approached was known too, as is witnessed by the offering of Abel.  Though man was dispersed throughout the world, this knowledge would have gone with them, being handed down by word of mouth.  After the flood it was down to Noah and his sons, but the witness of creation remained constant, so man is without excuse. 

* Then God called Abram: and through Isaac his son the seed proceeded; and the knowledge of God continued through His line, to the coming of Christ. 

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad