Author Topic: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans  (Read 1050 times)

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Cariad

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #48 on: March 31, 2017, 02:26:13 AM »
'Men who hold the truth in unrighteousness'

Hi Dave,

The truth was known by early man. The evidence of this is seen in Abel's offering. The very heavens portrayed God's plan of redemption.  The zodiac, though now abused and misused by man, tells the story, in it's passage through the heavens.  Dr Bullinger, in his book, 'The Witness of The Stars', (found online in pdf format), explains this very well.

The witness of creation, the Bible explains, can be heard by all who will listen. Those who hold , or suppress, the truth, 'in unrighteousness', are found among the Gentiles (nations), as these words in Rom.1, make clear; and it is upon them that God's wrath will be poured, Rev. 11:18; 19:15.

The word, 'wrath', occurs 12 times in Romans, seven times in the doctrinal section (Rom 1:1-5:11), but not in the central section, (5:12-8:39), where man, 'in Adam', is the subject.

Must close now.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad (Chris)


Offline John

Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #49 on: March 31, 2017, 08:06:37 AM »
Dave,
          Paul clearly said that the gospel brought salvation first for the jew, then gentiles etc. He wasn't just singling out the jews, he recognised that there are only two types of people.

The saved/Christian and those who are not saved.

All other distingtions are irrelevent.

As to those who have never heard the gospel. Make up your mind Dave, are you able to face the knowledge that those who never hear the gospel are eturnal separated from God.
Or is the prospect of a person meditating on creation, coming to the realisation that there is a good holy God and seeking that God in prayer and of God responding.
This does not negate the gospel it is just another way of putting Jesus's comment that those who seek will find etc.

Cariad

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #50 on: March 31, 2017, 10:24:11 AM »
Hello again,

John mentions those, 'who have not heard': and Romans 2 explains that they will be dealt with justly by Him Who knows the secrets of men's hearts, in that day when He sits in judgement.  Their ignorance of the gospel message is taken into account, by He who judges justly.

Regarding John's comment regarding, 'distinctions': there are distinctions made in God's Word, and they are for a purpose. At the time that Romans was written, the Jew still held a prior position, it was still, 'the Jew first'.  It was not until the revelation concerning the mystery was given to Paul, and made known to us in Ephesians 3, that the believing Jew and Gentile became, 'One', 'in Christ'.  The words, 'no difference', in Romans 3, related only where righteousness was concerned, in that all have sinned, otherwise the blessings came upon the Gentile believers only because they were part of the Olive tree of Israel.

So there are distinctions, as part of God's plan and purpose, and it is for us, in Christ, to try the things which differ, and compare Scripture with Scripture, not applying our own reasoning, but believing what is written, and applying as appropriate.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #51 on: March 31, 2017, 04:21:17 PM »
'Men who hold the truth in unrighteousness'

Hi Dave,

The truth was known by early man. The evidence of this is seen in Abel's offering. The very heavens portrayed God's plan of redemption.  The zodiac, though now abused and misused by man, tells the story, in it's passage through the heavens.  Dr Bullinger, in his book, 'The Witness of The Stars', (found online in pdf format), explains this very well.

The witness of creation, the Bible explains, can be heard by all who will listen. Those who hold , or suppress, the truth, 'in unrighteousness', are found among the Gentiles (nations), as these words in Rom.1, make clear; and it is upon them that God's wrath will be poured, Rev. 11:18; 19:15.

The word, 'wrath', occurs 12 times in Romans, seven times in the doctrinal section (Rom 1:1-5:11), but not in the central section, (5:12-8:39), where man, 'in Adam', is the subject.

Must close now.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad (Chris)

Hi Chris
Yes you are right those before the flood would have had knowledge of the God of creation.

Gen 4:26  And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos: then began men to call upon the name of the LORD.

And then we have

Gen 5:22  And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
Gen 5:23  And all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
Gen 5:24  And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

Yes so the God of creation was Preached before the flood no arguments about that

What happened after the flood I'm not to sure  about we Noah had the knowledge of God but there dose not seam to be anything in the scriptures to suggest that God was preached until Israel was created.

Love and Peace
Dave

Cariad

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2017, 11:11:04 AM »
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven
against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,
who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them;
for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen,
being understood by the things that are made,

even His eternal power and Godhead;
so that they are without excuse:
'

(Rom 1:18-20)

Hello there,

Having stopped a while, to consider the view, we now move on ... ...  :D

* The verse (abive) is a statement of Truth, and as with all Scripture we are to say, 'Yea, Lord! I believe it! Praise Your glorious Name!

* The verses that follow in chapter one, give the reasons for man's inexcusability:-

'Because that, when they knew God,
they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful;

but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,
and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.'

(Rom 1:21-23)

* How unbelieveably awful this is! For God is Holy!

* Now we are told of God's response:-

'Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness
through the lusts of their own hearts,
to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:'

(Rom 1:24)

* As they dishonoured God, so He, 'gave them up', - to uncleanness, to dishour their own bodies, as they had dishonoured His being, by images of their own making. For:-

'They changed the truth of God into a lie,
and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator,
Who is blessed for ever. Amen.'

(Rom 1:25) 

* Not only did they make vile images to represent His Godhead, but they worshipped and served those images!

'For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections:
for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman,
burned in their lust one toward another;
men with men working that which is unseemly,
and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.'

(Rom 1:26.27)

* As we acknowledge the awfulness of this, we have also to acknowledge the justice of it, don't we?

'And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge,
God gave them over to a reprobate mind
,
to do those things which are not convenient;
Being filled with all unrighteousness,
fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness;
full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity;
whisperers, backbiters, haters of God,
despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things,
disobedient to parents, '
{Rom 1:29,30) 


* What a list this is! All resulting from man not wishing to retain, 'the knowledge of God,' in their knowledge!  We see the truth of this dreadful, 'Giving up', by God, every day, don't we? We cannot doubt the truth of what is written here, can we?  Or that it applies to 'All' mankind.

*   It was, 'the knowledge of God' Himself, His very existence, His power, His Godhead, that  creation manifested, and which all men see, yet deny, isn't it?  That knowledge is made known universally: and as with the consequence of it's denial, applies to all men.

* It should therefore be no surprise to us, that the gospel that will be preached before God's judgement falls upon mankind is,

'And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven,
having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth,
and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
Saying with a loud voice,
'Fear God, and give glory to Him;
for the hour of His judgment is come:
and worship Him that made heaven,
and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters
."'

(Rev. 14:6,7)

Praise God! - for He IS.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Cariad

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2017, 11:49:27 AM »
'Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man,
whosoever thou art that judgest:
for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself;
for thou that judgest doest the same things.

But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth
against them which commit such things.
And thinkest thou this, O man,
 that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same,
 that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Or despisest thou the riches of His goodness and forbearance and longsuffering;
not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
But after thy hardness and impenitent heart
treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath
and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Who will render to every man according to his deeds:'

(Rom 2:3-6) 

Hello again,

We have seen that it was the failure on the part of mankind to glorify God, and to be simply thankful for the bounty that God had supplied in creation that resulted in God giving them up   Doesn't this impress upon us, who know God 'in Christ', the need to glorify Him in our lives, by word and witness, and to be thankful for all His goodness to us, in Christ Jesus our Lord!

* The verses above tell us that we are in no position to judge either the failure of man in past generation, or subsequently: for we are all, equally, (outside of Christ), 'children of wrath, even as others' (Eph.2:3).  It is only by the mercy and grace of God that we have been, 'quickened (ie., made alive) together with Christ'.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.
Cariad




Cariad

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2017, 01:24:53 PM »
 Hello, yet again,

I must just retrace my steps a little to consider the words of Romans 1:22-25,

'Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God
into an image made like to corruptible man,
and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness
through the lusts of their own hearts,
to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
Who changed the truth of God into a lie, (ie, 'the lie)
and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator,
who is blessed for ever. Amen.
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections:
for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:'


* The fact that God, through Paul, splits this statement up and uses the word, 'changed/change', three times in connection with the same thing  demands that we consider not only that man changed the glory of the uncorruptible God in this way, but that in doing so, they actually changed the truth of God (ie., concerning God) into a lie .(ie., 'the lie'), and also exchanged the natural use for that which was against nature.

* The other point that is repeated twice, and is equally demanding our attention is found in the words, 'God gave them up.' (vv.24, 26)

Which brings me to the questions, 'When did God give the gentiles (or nations) up?'

* I believe this took place following the rebellion at Babel, when God confused their languages, and scattered them abroad.
This took place also prior to the calling of Abram and the establishing of Israel as a nation, with it's miraculous beginning at the birth of Isaac, to a man and woman way past child-bearing ability.

* From that dispersal at Babel and the call of Abram - to the ministry of reconciliation committed to Paul, the gentiles were aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise throughout the dispensation of the law under Moses, throughout the kingdom under David, throughout the proclamation of the gospel of the Kingdom during the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus, and thoughout a part of the period covered by the Acts of the Apostles.

* To this period Paul referred when he said to the Athenians: 'At the time of this ignorance God winked,' but indicated that a change had come by adding, 'but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent.' (Acts 17:30).

* That the reconciliation of the world was closely associated with the setting aside of Israel (temporarily) may be seen by reading Romans 11:15.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad


* 'The lie' - will also need to be considered.

Offline davetaff

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2017, 02:49:26 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your posts really good reads I have read them through a few times and don't have a great deal to add and can agree with most of what you say but there was one thing in your last post which got me thinking.

You asked
Quote
Which brings me to the questions, 'When did God give the gentiles (or nations) up   


You may be right on the other hand could it be Israel God gave up when they rejected Jesus The reason I say this is

Quote
Rom 1:31  Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
   

Paul calls them covenantbreakers as far as I'm aware God  only made covenants with Israel it was Israel who had the law only Israel could have knowledge of breaking the law and we are told in another place.

Jas 2:10  For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

So Paul lists everything that Israel dose to qualify as a law breaker the last offence was the killing of our lord which counts as murder and the penalty for that is death.

Love and Peace
Dave