Author Topic: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans  (Read 1051 times)

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Cariad

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #40 on: March 28, 2017, 11:33:55 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your reply Before we move on I would like to look at this verse you have quoted.

Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

may be you can help me out here where is says ( unrighteousness of men ) I would feel much happier if it said man because it goes on to say who hold the truth the only ones who had the truth of course was Israel as you may remember I believe that Israel is Adam of this creation.
It was they who had been given the truth about the beginning of creation.

Love and Peace
Dave

'For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven
against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,
who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them;
for God hath shewed it unto them.
For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen,
being understood by the things that are made,
even His eternal power and Godhead;

so that they are without excuse:'

(Rom.1:18-20)

Hello @davetaff,

* When we wore watches, that could be taken apart, so that the working parts could be seen, the mechanism working with such precision.  We recognised that it had a maker and wondered and marvelled at the craftmanship of it.  We gave glory to the maker and praised his expertise, and wound it with care, checked it, and listened to it's ticking with great admiration and thankfulness that we could be assured of it's accuracy and faithful timekeeping.
 
* We wake to the sunrise, and watch it's passage through the skies, and watch it again as it sinks down in the western sky.  We see the moon rise in it's place giving light to the earth, and the stars fill the skies.  We see the flowers raise their heads to the sun's rays, and feel the rain fall, which waters the earth and makes things grow.  We breath in and out and the blood flows through our veins and we run and jump, dance and sing, but do we acknowledge that this glorious creation must have a Maker, are we filled with wonder and grateful praise for the food on our table or the ability to feel joy, be able to love, and reproduce our own kind? Which is all His doing.

* Do we have the knowledge of God portrayed before our eyes in the things which He has made, which shout aloud of His power and Godhead, and hold these truths in unrighteousness? Do we prefer to worship the gods of our own making? as mankind has done down through the ages.

'The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth His handywork.
Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.

In them hath He set a tabernacle for the sun,
Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber,
and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
His going forth is from the end of the heaven,
 and his circuit unto the ends of it:
and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.'

(Psa.19:1-6)

* Jeremiah 9:23,24, says, 

'Thus saith the LORD,
"Let not the wise man glory in his wisdom,
neither let the mighty man glory in his might,
let not the rich man glory in his riches:
But let him that glorieth glory in this,
that he understandeth and knoweth me,
that I am the LORD which exercise lovingkindness,
judgment, and righteousness, in the earth:
for in these things I delight," saith the LORD
.'


* Forgive me, Dave for I have not answered your question directly, for I got carried away.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad
 

Offline John

Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #41 on: March 29, 2017, 08:33:52 AM »
Taking a verse out of context always screws up ones understanding.
The passage reads in the NIV:-
 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed ? a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,[e] just as it is written: ?The righteous will live by faith.?[f]
 
God?s wrath against sinful humanity

18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God?s invisible qualities ? his eternal power and divine nature ? have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
 
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles

God has made himself known to ALL men and their rejection of him means they have no excuse for when they face God's just anger and experience his justice.

You don't like this aspect of the gospel Dave, that there are consquences in rejecting Gods laws, his offer of mercy and in ends in an eturnal separation from God and all that he is and represents.

Hell isn't fire and demons but the awefulnes of being without God.

Offline davetaff

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #42 on: March 29, 2017, 02:47:57 PM »
Hi Chris and John
Thank you for your replies both very good posts which support the standard interpretation of the verses quoted which I have believed as well in times past but now I'm not to sure about.
so I would like to explore them with your help and anyone else who would like to join in my reasons for doubt are it makes no sense at all to me to say that all mankind is without excuse because its plain to see what God has created this may be true but which God.

Did the Aborigines in Australia or the Eskimos of the far north or the pygmies in the Amazon jungle know it was the God of the bible who created everything they most probably had a God for everything but the God of the bible they did not know.

So what dose Paul mean when he says.

 Rom 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Should the word men be translated man

 ἄνθρωπος
anthrōpos
anth'-ro-pos
From G435 and ὤψ ōps (the countenance; from G3700); manfaced, that is, a human being: - certain, man.
Total KJV occurrences: 560

G435

ἀνήρ
anēr
an'-ayr
A primary word (compare G444); a man (properly as an individual male): - fellow, husband, man, sir.
Total KJV occurrences: 214

So it seams to me that the Greek word translated in the text as men could well be translated man which makes far more sense if Paul is speaking about Israel ( man in Gods image ).

It was only Israel who knew the truth about God and creation no one else.
I ask did the rest of mankind  need to know Paul says in another place.

 Rom 4:15  Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

What I'm saying is if those outside israel did not know about the God of the bible or his laws then they could not be transgressors but they all paid the price of Adams sin which is death.

The other question is if the just shall live by faith how could all those who lived outside Israel have faith in a God they had never heard of what he had done and what he had promised.

Love and Peace
Dave       

Offline John

Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #43 on: March 30, 2017, 07:59:16 AM »
Dave,
             Those people outside of Israel in the med, who through out history were separated from the people of God and who had no knowledge of the bible also had the knowledge of God that we are reading about in Romans.
It plainly says that ALL man kind is without any excuse for not worshipping God.

Had any of these people sought God through what they knew, do you think God would have not known or would have ignored them or accused them because of their lack of knowledge?

God is speaking to muslims who have never heard of Jesus through dreams etc, why do you assume God couldn't or wouldn't do the same back in the days of Noah or at any time in history.

When God says they have no excuse, they really do not have any valid reason for their, repeat, their willfull rejection of God.
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Cariad

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #44 on: March 30, 2017, 10:07:48 AM »
@davetaff
@John

'For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven
against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,
who hold the truth in unrighteousness; ... '

(Romans 1:18)

Hello again,

Remaining with Dave's question concerning Romans 1:18. 

* Here we have now entered, as it were, a court of law: and the prosecution is making it's case against the Gentiles, (or nations).  This does  not include Israel, for Israel is not to be counted among the nations.  The case against the Jew comes in the following chapter. 

* The object of this is to show that where righteousness is concerned, there is no difference between Jew or Gentile, for, '... all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.'

'Now we know that what things soever the law saith,
 it saith to them who are under the law:
that every mouth may be stopped,
and all the world may become guilty before God.

Therefore by the deeds of the law
there shall no flesh be justified in His sight:
for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested,
being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ
unto all and upon all them that believe:
for there is no difference:
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


Being justified freely by His grace
through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth
to be a propitiation through faith in His blood,
to declare His righteousness
for the remission of sins that are past,
through the forbearance of God;
To declare, I say, at this time His righteousness:
that He might be just,
and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
'

(Rom.3:19-26)

* By Paul's hand, God is revealing a level playing field, in which both Jew and Gentile are seen to be equally in need of the righteousness that He only can provide: which is obtained by faith alone and not by works of law; revealed in, 'The Gospel of Christ'.

* This is what 1:18, and the verses which follow, right through to chapter 3, seek to show.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad


* Regarding your theory, Dave,
perhaps you would like to dedicate a thread to it,
so that it can be viewed in isolation.


Offline davetaff

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #45 on: March 30, 2017, 02:29:17 PM »
Dave,
             Those people outside of Israel in the med, who through out history were separated from the people of God and who had no knowledge of the bible also had the knowledge of God that we are reading about in Romans.
It plainly says that ALL man kind is without any excuse for not worshipping God.

Had any of these people sought God through what they knew, do you think God would have not known or would have ignored them or accused them because of their lack of knowledge?

God is speaking to muslims who have never heard of Jesus through dreams etc, why do you assume God couldn't or wouldn't do the same back in the days of Noah or at any time in history.

When God says they have no excuse, they really do not have any valid reason for their, repeat, their willfull rejection of God.

Hi John
Thanks for your post I still think Paul is speaking about Israel it was only them who had the full knowledge of the truth it was only them who had the law and broke the law and paid the price.

Quote
God is speaking to muslims who have never heard of Jesus through dreams etc, why do you assume God couldn't or wouldn't do the same back in the days of Noah or at any time in history.
   

I think most muslims have heard of Jesus he was regarded as a great prophet after Mohammed.

 Muslims believe that Jesus was a prophet who was given a special message?injil, or the gospel?to convey to all people. This message both confirmed what was taught in the Torah and foretold the coming of Prophet Muhammad. Thus, Jesus has a vital and unique role to play in the Muslim faith.

Quote
Had any of these people sought God through what they knew, do you think God would have not known or would have ignored them or accused them because of their lack of knowledge?
   

If as you say God had given knowledge about himself outside of Israel there would be no need for the scripture or preaching and all preaching was confined to Israel up until the time of Christ.
I will grant you that God chose certain people Noah Abraham Issac Jacob etc but all these where chosen within the framework of Israel.

Love and Peace
Dave 




 

Offline davetaff

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #46 on: March 30, 2017, 03:56:34 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your post lots of scriptures a good read but my whole theory hangs on the words I have quoted.

 men,
who hold the truth in unrighteousness; ... '

Only Israel had the truth.

Act 14:16  Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.
Eph 2:12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

from the two verses above we can see that the gentiles did not know God so could not transgress his laws and statutes.

Yes we now have a level playing field as you say we have all sinned  and fall short and we can all be saved through the blod of Christ.

Quote
* Regarding your theory, Dave,
perhaps you would like to dedicate a thread to it,
so that it can be viewed in isolation.
   

Ok Chris i did not mean to high jack your thread sorry so lets move on we have all made our views clear no point in flogging it to death.
so where would you like to go next I'll take my lead from you.

Ps how is your reading on that article on revelations going.

Love and Peace
Dave 

Offline davetaff

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #47 on: March 30, 2017, 04:18:42 PM »
Hello Dave, (@davetaff)

I find your reply to John so discouraging. For how can we share the Word of God together, and rejoice in it's truths, if you don't believe what is written?
 
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Hi Chris
I'm sorry if I have offended you I can assure you it was never my intention,  as for what is written I believe every word jot and tittle that's never in question what is in question is interpretation of which there are many as you know.

When I started to study the scriptures I said to myself what do they say to me how dose God speak to me through his word and on that bases I say what I say.
I am well aware that some of what I say can seam a bit strange but that's how the word speaks to me at the present time but it is an ongoing process.
I hope this wont affect our discussions which I greatly value and I'm sure others do as well.

so lets leave this subject behind us and move on in the Lord.

Love and Peace
Dave