Author Topic: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans  (Read 2193 times)

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Offline Cariad

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #120 on: January 09, 2018, 04:17:51 PM »
Hi John
Thanks for your reply and pointing those verses out. Rom 2:14 -16; Rom 3:9 - 23

What do you think a law unto themselves mean do you think the gentile who are spoken of here are those who have believed in Christ or is it the gentiles of all ages I think the law written on there hearts must mean those who are Christs.

Rom 3:9 to 23  is saying that everyone is a sinner we are all guilty of breaking the law and the only way to be saved is by faith in Jesus Christ  through the forgiveness of sins.

Love and Peace
Dave

'(For not the hearers of the law are just before God,
but the doers of the law shall be justified.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law,
do by nature the things contained in the law,
these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts,
their conscience also bearing witness,
and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.)'

(Rom 2:13-16) 

Hi Dave,

You asked the question of John, 'What do you think 'a law unto themselves' means?

The Gentiles were not under the law as the Jew was, were they? but they were under the law of conscience which is common to all men.  It is their thoughts which accuse or excuse, and in that way they are a law unto themselves. 

In the day when God by Jesus Christ, shall judge the secrets of men, then He will make righteous judgments based on His knowledge of men's hearts, and many will be granted life who have never heard the gospel of Christ, but have lived to please God according to the dictates of their own conscience.

In Christ Jesus
Chris


PS:
I believe you ask these questions, not because you yourself do not know the answer, but in order to promote discussion. :)

Offline davetaff

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #121 on: January 10, 2018, 02:24:27 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your reply you said.

Quote
In the day when God by Jesus Christ, shall judge the secrets of men, then He will make righteous judgments based on His knowledge of men's hearts, and many will be granted life who have never heard the gospel of Christ, but have lived to please God according to the dictates of their own conscience.
   

I like this reply on the lines of what I believe my self but it dose raise questions like its only through faith in Jesus Christ that one can be saved so when will all those who have not heard of Christ have an opportunity to come to Know him.
My answer is during the millennial reign of Christ.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Cariad

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #122 on: January 10, 2018, 11:14:44 PM »
Romans 2:1-16

Quote
@davetaff:
So, when will all those who have not heard of Christ have an opportunity to come to know Him?

Romans chapters one and two tell us of those who will stand before God in the day when He will judge the secrets of men's hearts, and will judge them according to their works, for by that time the day of grace will have passed.  God also knows how they would have responded had they heard.  He will therefore make righteous judgments.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris




Offline davetaff

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #123 on: January 15, 2018, 02:25:53 PM »
Romans 2:1-16

Romans chapters one and two tell us of those who will stand before God in the day when He will judge the secrets of men's hearts, and will judge them according to their works, for by that time the day of grace will have passed.  God also knows how they would have responded had they heard.  He will therefore make righteous judgments.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris
Thank you for your  your reply I am a little sceptical are you saying that some will be saved without a knowledge of Christ or faith in him I have always thought that faith in Christ was essential to our salvation.

I am not questioning Romans I & 2 as such but feel it's more of a question of when god has judged these who have no knowledge of Christ they will be allowed access to the millennial reign of Christ and get to know him and make a freewill choice to love him and have faith in him.

Christ and his church will reign here on earth for a thousand years who will he reign over and for what purpose.

Love and Peace
Dave 

Offline Cariad

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #124 on: January 15, 2018, 03:54:59 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your  your reply I am a little sceptical are you saying that some will be saved without a knowledge of Christ or faith in him I have always thought that faith in Christ was essential to our salvation.

I am not questioning Romans I & 2 as such but feel it's more of a question of when god has judged these who have no knowledge of Christ they will be allowed access to the millennial reign of Christ and get to know him and make a freewill choice to love him and have faith in him.

Christ and his church will reign here on earth for a thousand years who will he reign over and for what purpose.

... ... 'Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
To them who by patient continuance in well doing
seek for glory and honour and immortality,
eternal life:
But unto them that are contentious,
and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness,
indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil,
of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good,
to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
For there is no respect of persons with God.
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:
and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; ... ... '

(Rom 2:6-12)
 
Hi Dave,

The first point to establish is that those who have been saved by grace, on the basis of the sacrificial work of Christ, will not come into judgement. 

Praise God!

* However, those who have never had access to the truth which is in Christ Jesus, who have never heard the gospel of salvation by grace, through the Lord Jesus Christ, will come into judgement. Yet they will be judged with scrupulous fairness, for they had no responsibility for inheriting a sinful nature from fallen Adam, nor for being born in a place where it was impossible to hear the gospel.  Romans 10:14, recognises the limits of their responsibility:-

'How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? 
and how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard? 
and how shall they hear without a preacher.'


* The clear answer is that they cannot do any of these things and a righteous God will recognise this.  A crude orthodoxy may consign them to hell for eternity, but the teaching of Romans 2, does nothing of the kind.  It deals with them along the lines of conscience and the circumstances that surround them and states that they are a 'law unto themselves (Rom. 2:14).  They are a special case in other words, and the 'faith obedience' to the gospel to which chapter one refers, cannot apply to them.

--------------------------

'For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law:
and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God,
but the doers of the law shall be justified.
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law,
do by nature the things contained in the law,
these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts,
their conscience also bearing witness,
and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.'

(Rom 2:12-16) 

* The Gentile who never had the standard of the law of God given through Moses, will not be judged by that standard.  Nevertheless he is not without law entirely, for inwardly, he has a law which should be the regulator of his thoughts and actions, and this is his conscience.  This is the moral law in miniature as it were.  Conscience either condemns his wrong doing (accuses him) or witnesses that he is right (excuses him), and all this is open to God Who, unlike man, knows the thoughts and the intents of the heart of every person in every particular.

* Furthermore we are assured in Scripture that the righteous judge of all is able to do what no human judge can, that is, He assesses what an individual would have done if his circumstances had been different.  God's judgment is dependent upon the amount of light a person has had and what the circumstances surrounding him were like.  In other words guilt is proportionate, and God is able to make a righteous comparison with the favoured and those who were not so favoured.

* As an example, we have in the Old Testament God's earthly people, Israel, compared with Sodom, which on the surface, is surprising to say the least:

'As I live, saith the Lord God,
Sodom thy sister hath not done,
she nor her daughters, as thou hast done,
thou and thy daughters ...
They (Sodom and her daughters) are more righteous than thou.'

(Ezek. 16:48-52)

* It would be difficult to make any valid comparison between the Israelite and the inhabitants of Sodom, except to say that, with all the revelation and light contained in the law of Moses, the Jew was in a vastly more favourable position than the people of this city.  This being so, their responsibility was much greater.  Added light inevitably brings added responsibility in God's sight.  Would that this was continually impressed upon the minds of all believers.

In Christ Jesus
Chris





 





Offline Cariad

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #125 on: January 15, 2018, 04:02:43 PM »
* You mention other points, Dave, which I cannot address at the moment, namely:-
Quote
@davetaff:
I am not questioning Romans I & 2 as such but feel it's more of a question of when god has judged these who have no knowledge of Christ they will be allowed access to the millennial reign of Christ and get to know him and make a freewill choice to love him and have faith in him.
Christ and his church will reign here on earth for a thousand years who will he reign over and for what purpose.

* God willing, I can come back to this, or make it the subject of another thread, perhaps?



Offline davetaff

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #126 on: January 16, 2018, 02:12:21 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your reply you said.

Quote
The first point to establish is that those who have been saved by grace, on the basis of the sacrificial work of Christ, will not come into judgement.     

Rom 14:10  But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12  So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

  Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
 


It seams that everyone will stand before the judgement seat or am I missing something.

now as for those who do not have a knowledge of God or Christ I have always believed that God wants us to Love him from the heart of our own freewill but how can anyone love someone if thay have on knowladge of then yes God can judge them as you say but can they and will they love God and thier nieghbour and there enemies.

Love and Peace
Dave


Offline Cariad

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Re: A walk through Paul's epistle to the Romans
« Reply #127 on: January 16, 2018, 11:54:45 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your reply you said.

Rom 14:10  But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11  For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12  So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

  Rev 20:12  And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
 


It seams that everyone will stand before the judgement seat or am I missing something.

* I said that the believer will not come into judgment (or condemnation), and that is true (Rom. 8:1). Yet we will all stand before Christ and give an account regarding our walk (Rom.14:10,11), and receive reward or suffer loss as appropriate: but we will not come into condemnation, or lose the gift of life promised to us in Christ Jesus.

* The great white throne judgement, of Revelation 20:12, that you quote, is not for the believer, for He has passed from death to life, in Christ Jesus.

I'm afraid I do not understand the last paragraph.

In Christ Jesus
Chris