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Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis (the seed-plot of the whole Bible) and Revelation compared
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2016, 04:30:36 PM »
Hi Cariad
thanks for your reply you said

Quote
I do understand what you are saying, even if I do not always agree with your conclusions   

Don't worry about it there's not many that do agree with me but I'm not bothered all I know is what I believe has led me to Christ Jesus our Lord and that's what's important is it not. Maybe he leads us in different ways to the same Goal his glorious Kingdom.

So back to the subject in hand.
the forth day Christ comes into the world the light of the world to take up his rightful place as Israel's Priest Prophet and King but was rejected and put to death and so a new creation of man in Gods image begins.
It will follow the same pattern as Israel It starts with one man Christ the seed of Abraham He is the sun of God and the son of Man ( the man being Israel ) we need to remember a seed must die to bring fourth life.
I will leave it there for the moment so we can have time to think how Christ and Israel are alike.

Love and Peace
Dave     

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis (the seed-plot of the whole Bible) and Revelation compared
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2016, 02:28:50 PM »
Hi
To continue the theme of Christ and Israel.

Hos 11:1  When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Mat 2:14  When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15  And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

The first verse tells us that Israel is Gods son ( Adam ) The verses from Mathew tell us Christ went to Egypt and so did Israel the verse from Hosea applies to both.

 Next we have

Mat 4:1  Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
Mat 4:2  And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
Mat 4:3  And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
Mat 4:4  But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

When Israel came out of Egypt they went into the wilderness as did our Lord Israel for 40 years our Lord for 40 days both were tempted in the wilderness Israel gave in to temptation our lord did not.
But God sustained both.

Love and Peace
Dave     

Cariad

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Re: Genesis (the seed-plot of the whole Bible) and Revelation compared
« Reply #26 on: November 02, 2016, 04:40:38 PM »
Quote
quote @davetaff:
Hos 11:1  When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Mat 2:14  When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Mat 2:15  And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

The first verse tells us that Israel is Gods son ( Adam ) The verses from Mathew tell us Christ went to Egypt and so did Israel the verse from Hosea applies to both.

'When Israel was a child,
then I loved him,
and called my son out of Egypt.
'

Hosea 11:1)

'And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh,
"Thus saith the LORD,
Israel is my son,
even my firstborn:

And I say unto thee,
Let my son go, that he may serve me:
and if thou refuse to let him go,
behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn."'

(Exo 4:22,23)

'And was there until the death of Herod:
that it might be fulfilled
which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
"Out of Egypt have I called my son."'

(Mat 2:15)

* I agree that Hosea 11:1 applies to Israel and to our Lord Jesus Christ.
For, while still in Egypt God declared Israel to be His Son, and therefore, brought His son (Israel as a type of Christ) out of Egypt.  He sent him down into Egypt  to preserve his life (Gen.46:3); and then,  to establish him in Canaan (the promised land) He brought them/'him' out.  Satan obstructed these plans and seemed to have won a victory, for the Canaanite was well established in the land.  But God re-entered with the true Israel - His Beloved Son.  The true Israel (Christ - the antitype) therefore sought safety in Egypt, He, like Israel in Egypt was 'Son of God' there too, and as truly 'The Son of God' he is brought out and  enters the promised land - this time with no defeat.  As their Kinsman He only has the right and ability to redeem them.

Praise God!

* What I don't understand, Dave, is why you have you inserted Adam here? For the teaching concerning Adam (the first Adam) and Christ as the last Adam (1 Cor. 15:45), has quite a different application, doesn't it?

* Luke 3:38, may be the reason for your inserting Adam here,

'Which was the son of Enos,
which was the son of Seth,
which was the son of Adam,
which was the son of God.'

(Luke 3:38)

* Here Adam is called, 'son of God', for he, like the angels of heaven, was created by God, eg., ['When the morning stars sang together, and 'all the sons of God' (angels) shouted for joy? ( Job.38:7)], wasn't he, not because he was begotten of Him?

'In this was manifested the love of God toward us,
because that God sent His only begotten Son into the world,
that we might live through Him. '

(1 John4:9) 

* The Lord Jesus Christ has the blessed distinction of being God's only 'begotten' Son.  Begotten and not made.  In that respect Adam is not a type of Christ, only in relation to the teaching of Rom 5:14, and 1 Cor.15:22 & 45  [the first 'Adam ('Man'), and, 'The Last Adam'] sonship doesn't come into the comparison, does it, Dave?

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

 

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis (the seed-plot of the whole Bible) and Revelation compared
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2016, 05:30:19 PM »
Hi Cariad
Nice to see you back so why did I say Israel is Adam as you Know I believe God started a new creation with Noah so it would follow the pattern of the first creation so there must be a Adam the only one who fits the bill is Israel and the scripture you quoted proves it.

"Thus saith the LORD,
Israel is my son,
even my firstborn:

If Israel is Gods son then he must be Adam, Adam was created in the image of God then it stands to reason so was Israel which brings us back to the question, what is man in Gods image for the answer we need to look at Israel and our Lord Jesus Christ the last Adam.
I like to think of the name Adam not as man but mankind Gods ultimate goal is all mankind under one head which is Christ living in Love and Peace as commanded by our Lord.
This is Man ( mankind ) in Gods image Think about how our Lord will look in his millennial kingdom this is man in Gods image the crowning glory of creation.
Hope some of that makes sence.

Love and Peace
Dave     

Cariad

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Re: Genesis (the seed-plot of the whole Bible) and Revelation compared
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2016, 06:18:04 PM »
Hi Dave, (@davetaff)

I find your thoughts concerning this troubling, because it has no basis in Scripture. Dave.The Holy Spirit would tell us surey if we are to make this deduction. 

In Christ Jesus
Cariad


Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis (the seed-plot of the whole Bible) and Revelation compared
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2016, 02:31:45 PM »
Hi Dave, (@davetaff)

I find your thoughts concerning this troubling, because it has no basis in Scripture. Dave.The Holy Spirit would tell us surey if we are to make this deduction. 

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Hi Cariad
Please forgive me if I have caused you trouble it's certainly not my intention If you wish to discontinue this thread you only have to say.
I do feel that Genesis is vitally important to understanding Gods word I can not believe it's just something that happened thousands of years ago and has no relevance today.
You say that I have no bases in scripture I have to disagree I think I nearly always give scripture to back up what I say maybe my interpretation is wrong if so please show me how.

I think for me the whole issue boils down to two questions.

1 what dose Man in Gods image look like. ( has God Failed twice )
2.what dose son of man mean. ( Christ was not the son of Joseph he was the son of God so which man was he the son of I say Israel )

I also believe the story of Cain and Able is a foreshadowing of Israel killing our Lord when Eve gave birth to Seth it was a foreshadowing of the resurrection Seth replaced Able.

Love and Peace
Dave     
 

Cariad

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Re: Genesis (the seed-plot of the whole Bible) and Revelation compared
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2016, 04:29:21 PM »
Hi Cariad
Please forgive me if I have caused you trouble it's certainly not my intention If you wish to discontinue this thread you only have to say.
I do feel that Genesis is vitally important to understanding Gods word I can not believe it's just something that happened thousands of years ago and has no relevance today.
You say that I have no bases in scripture I have to disagree I think I nearly always give scripture to back up what I say maybe my interpretation is wrong if so please show me how.

I think for me the whole issue boils down to two questions.

1 what dose Man in Gods image look like. ( has God Failed twice )
2.what dose son of man mean. ( Christ was not the son of Joseph he was the son of God so which man was he the son of I say Israel )

I also believe the story of Cain and Able is a foreshadowing of Israel killing our Lord when Eve gave birth to Seth it was a foreshadowing of the resurrection Seth replaced Able.

Love and Peace
Dave   

Hello Dave, (@davetaff)

I am sorry too, for making you feel that you needed to apologize: sorry also for causing you any offence.  I do not doubt that you do give Scriptural backing for much of what you say, Dave. Yet, you must agree that in regard to the comments you have made in regard to Noah and Adam, it is merely personal belief, for we are not told that these things are so, eg.,

Quote
davetaff:
If Israel is Gods son then he must be Adam,
Adam was created in the image of God then it stands to reason so was Israel
which brings us back to the question, what is man in Gods image?
for the answer we need to look at Israel and our Lord Jesus Christ the last Adam.
I like to think of the name Adam not as man but mankind Gods ultimate goal is all mankind under one head which is Christ living in Love and Peace as commanded by our Lord.
This is Man ( mankind ) in Gods image Think about how our Lord will look in his millennial kingdom this is man in Gods image the crowning glory of creation.

*In order to reply to this I looked up all the references to the word, 'image' where is is used of man in God's image, or our Lord being the very image of God, and what I found is revealing, I think, Dave:-

'And God said, Let us make man (mankind) in our image, after our likeness:
and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air,
and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing
that creepeth upon the earth.
So God created man (Adam) in His own image,
in the image of God created He him;
male and female created He them.'

(Gen 1:26,27)

* God made Adam in His own image.  In verse 26, the word is, 'mankind', ('Let us make man (or 'mankind') in our image') but in verse 27, it is Adam specifically, ('so God created man' ie., 'the' man) and not mankind. He, like God, was to have dominion: - dominion in the earth (Gen.1:26).

* Yet the offspring of Adam are spoken of as being in Adam's likeness, after his own image aren't they?

'This is the book of the generations of Adam.
In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made He him;
Male and female created He them;
and blessed them, and called their name Adam,
in the day when they were created.
And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years,
and begat a son in his own likeness,
after his image; and called his name Seth:'

(Gen 5:1:1-3)

-------------------------------

'For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. '

(Rom.8:29) 

* This is wonderful, isn't it Dave? That we who have received the spirit of sonship, 'Christ's spirit', are to be conformed to the image of Christ, God's only begotten Son. ' ...  that He might be the firstborn among many brethren'.

'For a man indeed ought not to cover his head,
forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God:
but the woman is the glory of the man.'

(1Cor.11:7)
 
'And so it is written,
The first man Adam was made a living soul;
the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual,
but that which is natural;
and afterward that which is spiritual.
The first man is of the earth, earthy:
the second man is the Lord from heaven.
As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy:
and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly
.'

(1 Cor.15:45-49) 

* Those who have received of the spirit of Christ, will bear his image in resurrection life, with a spiritual body like His own.
 
'But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord,
are changed into the same image from glory to glory,
even as by the Spirit of the Lord. '

(2Cor.3:18)

* By the spirit of the Lord, we are changed into His image.
   
'In whom the god of this world
hath blinded the minds of them which believe not,
lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ,
Who is the image of God,
should shine unto them.'

(2 Cor.4:4 )

' Who is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn of every creature:'

(Col.1:15)

* The Lord Jesus Christ is the image of God, yet unbelievers are blinded to the light which illuminates Him.

'And have put on the new man,
which is renewed in knowledge
after the image of Him that created him:'

(Col.3:10)

* The spirit of Christ has produced the new man within us, the new nature, born from above, which is renewed in knowledge, after the image of Christ.

'Who being the brightness of His glory,
and the express image of His person,
and upholding all things by the word of His power,
when He had by Himself purged our sins,
sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; '

* Christ being the express image of God

Praise God!

Quote
davetaff:
I think for me the whole issue boils down to two questions.

1 what dose Man in Gods image look like. ( has God Failed twice )
2.what dose son of man mean. ( Christ was not the son of Joseph he was the son of God so which man was he the son of I say Israel )

I also believe the story of Cain and Able is a foreshadowing of Israel killing our Lord when Eve gave birth to Seth it was a foreshadowing of the resurrection Seth replaced Able.

Hi Dave,  Our Lord was called , 'the son of Abraham', wasn't He,? (So He was heir to the land), as, 'Son of David' also, (so heir to the throne), and as 'Seed of the woman', born in the line of Abraham and David, through Mary, he had the right to be Israel's 'kinsman Redeemer'.  But, as the last Adam he is identified with all mankind, and is able to give life,( resurrection life), to all who receive of His spirit, who are born from above.

'And so it is written,
The first man Adam was made a living soul;
the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.'

(1Co 15:45) 

* I have not thought in those terms of Cain, Abel and Seth, I will think about that.  'Thank you'.

*Forgive me, for I have got carried away, here.  Forgive me too, please, for any offence I may have caused.
Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Cariad



Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis (the seed-plot of the whole Bible) and Revelation compared
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2016, 05:12:18 PM »
Hi Cariad
Thanks for your Post very good as usual I don't have Much time now to answer all your points but would like to go through your Post and scripture you have quoted bit by bit.

Love and Peace
Dave