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Cariad

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Genesis (the seed-plot of the whole Bible) and Revelation compared
« on: September 29, 2016, 07:56:52 AM »
http://www.1faith.co.uk/bible-buddies/book-of-revelation-discussion-chapter-by-chapter/msg60250/#msg60250
Reply #500 (Page 63)

Hello there,

In the thread linked (above) and the response (#500), my intention to start this thread was made known to @davetaff, because of his thoughts expressed concerning Genesis: that not only is it a book containing knowledge of the beginning of things, but that it portrays in type and shadow what was (and is still)  to come.  Therefore portraying not only the beginning of things but the end as well.

I had already given a link which contained a list of comparisons which are clearly visible between Genesis and Revelation. I am interested in knowing what Dave has to say concerning what other comparisons there are to be found in Genesis (in type and shadow), for Genesis is described in my Bible appendix as, 'the seed-plot of the whole Bible'.

Quote
Genesis is the seed-plot of the whole Bible.  It is essential to the true understanding of its every part.  It is the foundation on which Divine Revelation rests; and on which it is built up.  It is not only the foundation of all Truth, but it enters into, and forms part of all subsequent inspiration; and is at once the warp and woof of Holy Writ.
Genesis is quoted or referred to sixty times in the New Testament; and Divine authority is set like a seal on its historical facts.  See Matt.19:4-6; Matt.24:37-39; Mark 7:4,10; Luke 11:49-51; Luke 17:26-29,32; John 1:51; John 7:21-23; 8:44-56)
It, and the Book of the Law, of which it forms part, (Gen. - Deut.) are ascribed to Moses.


*This is the link to the list of comparisons again, which interested parties may like to consider:-
http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app3.html

* I would be interested to hear from anyone who has thoughts on this subject.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad




http://www.1faith.co.uk/bible-buddies/book-of-revelation-discussion-chapter-by-chapter/msg60250/#msg60250
http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app3.html



Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis (the seed-plot of the whole Bible) and Revelation compared
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2016, 02:52:08 PM »
Hi Cariad
Thanks for your post I will do my best to explain why I believe what I do about Genesis I was taught and I think most people were that God created everything in six days and there's nothing wrong with believing that that's what the scriptures say so believe it.
the fathe
Without getting into how long the days were which will serve no useful purpose only bog down the thread I will ask a few questions instead what did Our Lord mean when he said.

 Joh 5:17  But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
17 In his defense Jesus said to them, ?My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working

If the father and son were still working at the time Jesus said this when did the father take his rest there's nothing in scripture that says God started work again after he rested which brings me to the conclusion that Gods rest is still a future event and I believe it will be Christ's millennial reign  when the father hands everything over to Christ.

Heb 4:3  For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4  For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5  And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6  Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

We see here in Heb 4:3 that everything was finished from the beginning even Gods rest day which is a future event that we all look forward to
So we see that the account in Genesis not only tells us of the initial creation of everything but also shows us what will happen from that time until the creation of the new heaven and earth it stretches over a vast amount of time how long I have no Idea.

God is always working in the same way and that way is based on the creation account in genesis but always keep in mind the last part of creation is Man in Gods image and this has not yet bean achieved but will be in Christ when he and his church become one.

Love and Peace
Dave     
   

Cariad

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Re: Genesis (the seed-plot of the whole Bible) and Revelation compared
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2016, 03:37:01 PM »
Hi Cariad
Thanks for your post I will do my best to explain why I believe what I do about Genesis I was taught and I think most people were that God created everything in six days and there's nothing wrong with believing that that's what the scriptures say so believe it.

The father
Without getting into how long the days were which will serve no useful purpose only bog down the thread I will ask a few questions instead what did Our Lord mean when he said.

Joh 5:17  But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
17 In his defense Jesus said to them, ?My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working

If the father and son were still working at the time Jesus said this when did the father take his rest there's nothing in scripture that says God started work again after he rested which brings me to the conclusion that Gods rest is still a future event and I believe it will be Christ's millennial reign  when the father hands everything over to Christ.

Heb 4:3  For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Heb 4:4  For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Heb 4:5  And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Heb 4:6  Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

We see here in Heb 4:3 that everything was finished from the beginning even Gods rest day which is a future event that we all look forward to
So we see that the account in Genesis not only tells us of the initial creation of everything but also shows us what will happen from that time until the creation of the new heaven and earth it stretches over a vast amount of time how long I have no Idea.

God is always working in the same way and that way is based on the creation account in genesis but always keep in mind the last part of creation is Man in Gods image and this has not yet been achieved but will be in Christ when he and his church become one.

Love and Peace
Dave     
 

Hello @davetaff,

Thank you for responding to this so quickly.

So, am I right in thinking that it is not Genesis as a whole, but the initial process of creation, that you are thinking of,  from (Gen 1:2) 

'And the earth was without form, and void;
and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.'


- - - to Genesis 2:1-3,

'Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made;
and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made.
And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it:
because that in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made.'

(Gen 2:1-3) 

* You believe that this initial creative process portrays what will happen throughout time until the new heaven and earth comes into being, am I right, Dave?  In what way does the daily process of the intervening six days portray the events of this period?  The creating of light and so on?

I genuinely only want to understand.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis (the seed-plot of the whole Bible) and Revelation compared
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2016, 02:56:34 PM »
Hi Cariad

You said
Quote
So, am I right in thinking that it is not Genesis as a whole, but the initial process of creation, that you are thinking of,  from (Gen 1:2) 
   

Yes that is correct he is always using his creative process to achieve his ultimate goal man in Gods image or as I like to say mankind in Gods image which is Christ his bride and the children God has given them we can consider how this relates to the church.

 Gen_3:16  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Quote
* You believe that this initial creative process portrays what will happen throughout time until the new heaven and earth comes into being, am I right, Dave?  In what way does the daily process of the intervening six days portray the events of this period?  The creating of light and so on?
   

Yes that's correct

Ecc 1:9  The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Lets consider

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

To make my point I would like to start with Noah I believe this is a new creation everything that whent before was destroyed So consider what the earth may have looked like during the flood would it not be complete darkness the earth covered with water without form etc then God stopped the rain the clouds abated and the sun came out and the normal daily cycle began again.

I will wait for your thoughts on this or anyone else for that matter all the more the merrier.

Love and Peace
Dave

Cariad

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Re: Genesis (the seed-plot of the whole Bible) and Revelation compared
« Reply #4 on: October 01, 2016, 08:41:34 PM »
Hi Cariad

You said
Yes that is correct he is always using his creative process to achieve his ultimate goal man in Gods image or as I like to say mankind in Gods image which is Christ his bride and the children God has given them we can consider how this relates to the church.

 Gen_3:16  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Yes that's correct

Ecc 1:9  The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Lets consider

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

To make my point I would like to start with Noah I believe this is a new creation everything that whent before was destroyed So consider what the earth may have looked like during the flood would it not be complete darkness the earth covered with water without form etc then God stopped the rain the clouds abated and the sun came out and the normal daily cycle began again.

I will wait for your thoughts on this or anyone else for that matter all the more the merrier.

Love and Peace
Dave

Hello Dave, (@davetaff)

I have considered the record of Noah and the flood, as you suggested, and it's result:-

'And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast,
and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth,
and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.
And every living substance (or 'standing thing)' was destroyed
which was upon the face of the ground,
both man, and cattle,
and the creeping things,
and the fowl of the heaven;
and they were destroyed from the earth:

and Noah only remained alive,
and they that were with him in the ark.

And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.'

(Gen.7:21-24(

* So with the exception of the representatives of all species, which Adam took into the ark with him, at God's instruction, and the immediate members of his family: his wife, his sons and their wives; all living things, which moved upon the face of the earth, which had within them the breath of life, under heaven, was destroyed.'

* However, there is no reason to believe that all was in complete darkness, either by day or by night.  The lights that God gave to rule the day and the night remained in place, as did the division of day and night to determine time, as we can see by the meticulous way that days and months were counted and recorded during that period.

* This is not a new creation, but the continuance of the Old creation. All that was destroyed were those things that had within them the breath of life, and that lived on, or in, the earth.  The sea creatures, and the herb of the field remained whose seed was in itself.  The dove that Noah finally sent out of the ark, returned with an olive leaf that had been plucked off the olive tree. (Gen. 8:11), which gives  evidence of living plant life. 

* Every species was also represented on the ark, the works of God's creation which were to go forth and be fruitful and multiply upon the earth (Gen. 8:17). That required vegetation and food sources other than that provided by Noah, at God's instruction,  when he entered the ark. With the drying out of the land it would seem that the earth replenished itself.

Praise God!

Within the love of Christ our Saviour
Cariad





Cariad

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Re: Genesis (the seed-plot of the whole Bible) and Revelation compared
« Reply #5 on: October 01, 2016, 10:41:40 PM »
Hi Cariad

You said
Yes that is correct he is always using his creative process to achieve his ultimate goal man in Gods image or as I like to say mankind in Gods image which is Christ his bride and the children God has given them we can consider how this relates to the church.

 Gen_3:16  Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Yes that's correct

Ecc 1:9  The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Lets consider

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3  And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4  And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5  And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

To make my point I would like to start with Noah I believe this is a new creation everything that whent before was destroyed So consider what the earth may have looked like during the flood would it not be complete darkness the earth covered with water without form etc then God stopped the rain the clouds abated and the sun came out and the normal daily cycle began again.

I will wait for your thoughts on this or anyone else for that matter all the more the merrier.

Love and Peace
Dave

'That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets,
and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers,
walking after their own lusts, and saying,
...... "Where is the promise of His coming?
...... for since the fathers fell asleep,
...... all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation."

For this they willingly are ignorant of,
that by the word of God the heavens were of old,
and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
Whereby the world that then was,
being overflowed with water, perished:
But the heavens and the earth, which are now,
by the same word are kept in store,
reserved unto fire
against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.'

(2 Peter 3:2-7)

* These words of God, through Peter, came to my mind, Dave. (@davetaff).  Here we read of 'the heavens and the earth, which are now', spoken of in contrast with, 'by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:... '.  This latter, being the original creation of the world, is said here in 2 Peter 3, to have been 'overflowed with water', and to have, 'perished'.  This cannot be referring to the flood of Genesis 7 itself, though, can it Dave? Because the flood of Genesis did not affect the 'heavens' at all, except that the windows of heaven were opened. (Gen.7:11 & 8:2). I believe that the heavens and the earth which perished, by an overflow of water, took place between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, for the earth was not created void in verse one, it became so, (v.2), and the next thing we hear of is the Spirit of God moving over the face of the waters.  The creation process which followed, by God's grace, being a work of redemption.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis (the seed-plot of the whole Bible) and Revelation compared
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2016, 02:57:54 PM »
Hi Cariad
Thanks for your replies they certainly keep the little grey cells working thanks again,  You said.

 
Quote
* However, there is no reason to believe that all was in complete darkness, either by day or by night.  The lights that God gave to rule the day and the night remained in place, as did the division of day and night to determine time, as we can see by the meticulous way that days and months were counted and recorded during that period.   

Of course you are right I did not mean to imply that the heavenly bodies where destroyed but under the flood conditions at that time the cloud cover would be so thick that hardly any light if any would penetrate plus we have.

Gen 7:16  And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

What dose shut him in mean to me it means he was not allowed out the only light would be from candles.

you said.
Quote
* This is not a new creation, but the continuance of the Old creation. All that was destroyed were those things that had within them the breath of life, and that lived on, or in, the earth.  The sea creatures, and the herb of the field remained whose seed was in itself.  The dove that Noah finally sent out of the ark, returned with an olive leaf that had been plucked off the olive tree. (Gen. 8:11), which gives  evidence of living plant life. 

* Every species was also represented on the ark, the works of God's creation which were to go forth and be fruitful and multiply upon the earth (Gen. 8:17). That required vegetation and food sources other than that provided by Noah, at God's instruction,  when he entered the ark. With the drying out of the land it would seem that the earth replenished itself.   

Of course you are right everything that God had created had bean preserved in the ark I think God may have helped to bring about a quick production of growth for the feeding of all the animals and Noah.s family. my speculation

So everything God created is in place after the flood there's only one thing missing man in gods image Adam and Eve are long gone and I don't think Noah fits the Bill so God set about to finish this new creation man in Gods image.
He will use the creation account in Genesis as the foundation to achieve this, this is where all the symbolism comes from it will take 6000 years to complete.

 2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Six days of this creation there will be a new Adam which is Israel this is mankind in Gods image but is the pattern of the last Adam who is to come which is Christ.
in your last post you  mentioned heaven remember Paul was taken up to the third  heaven what dose that mean can it be the first heaven was from Adam to Noah the second heaven from Noah to the end of this creation the third heaven the new heaven and earth mentioned in Revelations.

Love and Peace
Dave 

 
   

 

Cariad

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Re: Genesis (the seed-plot of the whole Bible) and Revelation compared
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2016, 04:33:42 PM »
Quote
... in your last post you  mentioned heaven remember Paul was taken up to the third  heaven what dose that mean can it be the first heaven was from Adam to Noah the second heaven from Noah to the end of this creation the third heaven the new heaven and earth mentioned in Revelations. ...

Hi @davetaff,

Nothing is penetrating my mind today, I am finding understanding difficult, I'm sorry.

* Your words (above) bring to mind Eph.4:10, and Eph. 1:20:-

' ... He that descended is the same also that ascended up
far above all heavens, that He might fill all things.)' ...


'when He raised him from the dead,
and set Him at His own right hand in the heavenly places,'


* So there appear to be heights which are 'far above all heavens', and 'heavenly places' where God is.

* Yet, I understand your thinking concerning the third heaven.  Our Lord on the cross, when speaking to the thief, referred to Paradise, and that is yet to come  (Rev.2:7).  Paul when speaking of the third heaven, could have been speaking of the new heaven and the new earth 'wherein dwelleth righteousness.' (2 Cor. 12:1-2) For he was referring to visions he had had.

Thank you, Dave.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad