Author Topic: Does the future depend on us or God ?  (Read 1386 times)

Description: Is our future dependant on God or us

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Offline francis drake

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #72 on: October 07, 2016, 09:41:54 PM »
Now you are stating that all this is very simple.
Absolutely, but despite how difficult you are determined to make it, even an uneducated child can comprehend the Kingdom of God.
Luke11v16But Jesus called the children to Him and said, ?Let the little children come to Me and do not hinder them! For the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17Truly I tell you, if anyone does not receive the kingdom of God like a little child, he will never enter it.?
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But consider a fetus in a womb which is developing but being created in a way that has defects [eg: a wrong development]

This baby may be stopped from being in communication with God due to a defect [while in the womb]
No matter how damaged, everyone can commune with God and vice versa.
If you seriously believe that God cannot see and hear the heart response of every man woman child and fetus, no matter how feeble, then your perception of God is extremely limited.
Luke9v46Then an argument started among the disciples as to which of them would be the greatest. 47But Jesus, knowing the thoughts of their hearts, had a little child stand beside Him.
Even the OT believers knew that nothing could be hidden from God.
Ps44v21Would not God find this out? For He knows the secrets of the heart.
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Now this persons only hope is that God will have mercy and grace.
Haha, if this fetus has hope, then he also has understanding and perception in the spiritual realm!
That God has mercy and grace is a given fact that never changes. It is only man's pride and arrogance that decides he'd rather manage without. Thus God grants man that right to walk independently of God.
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And none of your choices or desicions.
No, not so. Our decisions always count. God is not a tyrant who has created a race of thoughtless robots.
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Not to forget those who are unable to comunicate '[due to some of the above mentioned]
Again the idea that some cannot commune with God is unbiblical make believe.
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You might suggest that this was not applicable in bilbical times and this is all diue to inherited sin or demons
Nothing has changed in that area since Adam.
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but this is simply a baby developing in a womb "unable to choose and make desicions" [thus none of us are perfect]
Again, you have never presented one iota of biblical evidence to support this idea.
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Get my drift ? I hope you do...
Drift is a good metaphor Q, drifting far far away from biblical evidence.
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If not then may my desicion to post this - at least cause a barrier to your response [thus you now find a defect in my response and therfore I have denied God's blessing or even a response from God]

What I am saying is this - "born again" or salvation is and never was due to my response...
Why do you constantly deny scripture. From Genesis to Revelation, God is constantly demanding that men make righteous choices. To pretend that man doesn't have a choice over being born again makes Jesus's conversation with Nicodemus a complete nonsense.

John3v3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
And Nicodemus retorted, don't be stupid Jesus, you know we mortals have no say in the matter. If you want me to be born again, then get on with it.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline francis drake

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #73 on: October 07, 2016, 09:48:13 PM »
Something I picked up from a church I was looking around last month;

'Do not ask GOD to guide your footsteps... if you're NOT willing to MOVE your FEET.'

I suppose along the lines of the discussion I am seeing though, what if it is not a case of not being willing, but a case of not being able to?

There is certainly much to ponder in this thread.

Hi @Seeker, welcome to the conversation, if you can follow it.

There is no evidence whatsoever in scripture that God ever expects any man to go beyond his capability. There would be no point in the Lord doing such a thing.

If you can show me a verse that proves he does so, then I would love to see it.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #74 on: October 08, 2016, 01:13:01 AM »
Something I picked up from a church I was looking around last month;

'Do not ask GOD to guide your footsteps... if you're NOT willing to MOVE your FEET.'

I suppose along the lines of the discussion I am seeing though, what if it is not a case of not being willing, but a case of not being able to?

There is certainly much to ponder in this thread.

Aye @Seeker  :D


Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #75 on: October 08, 2016, 02:00:51 AM »
Well it's been an  interesting discussion.

Some things Guest did not want to read or listen to and some things I did not want to hear or read and is'nt that just like our commincation with God !  :D


Offline francis drake

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #76 on: October 08, 2016, 09:07:33 AM »
Well it's been an  interesting discussion.

Some things Guest did not want to read or listen to and some things I did not want to hear or read and is'nt that just like our commincation with God !  :D

But where are the scriptures to support your ideas Q? You have not provided any that prove your points.

In contrast, the bible from end to end shows God placing responsibility for decision making directly on the shoulders of men.
In book after book of the bible, we find multiple thousands of scriptures showing God rebuking man for his evil decisions.

God's command and Adams disobedience regarding the Tree of Knowledge shows that Adam had freewill. Surely if God was in control of our decisions, then right at the very beginning of mankind, we would see God preventing Adam from causing the appalling misery of the fall of all creation?

Other than in judgement for iniquity, there is no evidence whatsoever that God overrules man's decision making to make his heart obedient.

Please give me some basic straight forward biblical support for what you keep presenting here.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #77 on: October 08, 2016, 02:44:13 PM »
Something I picked up from a church I was looking around last month;

'Do not ask GOD to guide your footsteps... if you're NOT willing to MOVE your FEET.'

I suppose along the lines of the discussion I am seeing though, what if it is not a case of not being willing, but a case of not being able to?

There is certainly much to ponder in this thread.
  @Seeker

And

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But where are the scriptures to support your ideas Q? You have not provided any that prove your points.

Pulling me back into the discussion  :undecided:



I can think of numerous examples in scripture where people do not have a choice.

I gave examples earlier on where the disciples [once following Jesus] had to go through things they would rather not.

John where he was imprisoned in Patmos, Paul and the thorn and under house arrest, [here Paul knew what was going to happen] and it was his will to follow .

Nonetheless he did not chose the thorn, Peter or Stephen being stoned etc etc.

2 Corinthians 1:8-9 For we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of the affliction we experienced in Asia. For we were so utterly burdened beyond our strength that we despaired of life itself. Indeed, we felt that we had received the sentence of death. But that was to make us rely not on ourselves but on God who raises the dead

burdened beyond our ability, and we could not handle it


1 Corinthians 10:13 however is about sin.



must dash to work now [see's you lateres taters




Offline francis drake

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #78 on: October 08, 2016, 06:53:19 PM »

I can think of numerous examples in scripture where people do not have a choice.

I gave examples earlier on where the disciples [once following Jesus] had to go through things they would rather not.
Sorry Guardian, that proves nothing whatsoever.
Jesus made it clear that in choosing to follow him would bring persecution. So despite that we all would "rather not" endure it, it is still our choice to walk that walk.
ie. the future depended on their freewill choice to follow Jesus.

Jesus laid out the warning on various  occasions.-
Luke21v12"But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name.

Matt5v11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.

Lk11v49Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.'

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John where he was imprisoned in Patmos,
Ditto
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Paul and the thorn
That was a demonic attack................messenger of Satan. But ditto.
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and under house arrest, [here Paul knew what was going to happen] and it was his will to follow .
As you said, it was Paul's express will.
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Nonetheless he did not chose the thorn, Peter or Stephen being stoned etc etc.
They chose to walk the walk, and got what Jesus told them they would get. ie. Their future was determined by the decision that they alone had made.
God did not make that choice for them.
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2 Corinthians 1:8-9 For we do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, of the affliction we experienced in Asia. For we were so utterly burdened beyond our strength that we despaired of life itself. Indeed, we felt that we had received the sentence of death. But that was to make us rely not on ourselves but on God who raises the dead

burdened beyond our ability, and we could not handle it

You forgot to add the end of that passage "..................But that was to make us rely not on ourselves but on God.........."

Nothing you have presented indicates that God overrules man's freewill.

At the beginning you said,-
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I can think of numerous examples in scripture where people do not have a choice.
Yet at no time on this thread or elsewhere have you given any example where that is clearly proven.
Nor have you explained the countless scriptures where God repeatedly demands that man makes a freewill choice.

Obviously when God decides to judge people or a nation with destruction or death, then that is not what they would want. However scripture shows that God repeatedly warns them first.
Nobody goes to hell by accident.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #79 on: October 09, 2016, 02:03:06 AM »
well that is the core of this argument - whether we chose to follow God's Will or our's .


And so you must expect your future to be contolled by God once you give it to God..

If you take control then that is your descision.. [and this is where we walk in and out if God's will]

I do not get the argument here...

Of course you  are in control if you take control.

This  makes no difference to my eternal destiny [as  you are targeting those who are already destined  into eternity I do not get the point of including when they [in their relationship with God]  chose to to walk and out of God's Will ?


And obviously if you give your future to God then He is in control [as long as you continue to give Him the government of your life]

If you never gave your life to Jesus then obviously your desicion depends on your own will