Author Topic: Does the future depend on us or God ?  (Read 1761 times)

Description: Is our future dependant on God or us

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Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2016, 01:59:37 AM »
Having already given many examples were God chooses our will as we give our lives over to God

I want to focus now on an even deeper reality when our wills change God's Will. [this does not change God's Sovereign Will]

Isaiah 38:5  "Go and tell Hezekiah, 'This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your
 prayer and seen your tears; I will add fifteen years to your life.


Now pryer to this God said Isaiah 38:1 "This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to
die; you will not recover."


God had decided upon that which was already decided since long ago

The result of God's desicion due to Hezekiah's plea [descision] now this is basically "a healing that prolongs a life"

This is also about the power of prayer and how God changes His-tory through prayer.

Yet being a sign in the OT we see the result of this change

Now because of this change in history Manasseh was born - now because of the sin of Hezekiah after being healed in those fifteen
years Hezekiah brought a generational curse on Manasseh.

Here Manasseh [son of hezekiah] changes History due to God's desicion and from him came his descendants [all due to a prayer]

That changed history [as there were many descendants [and brought evil upon generations]


Here we see the relational aspect of will's and desciion making between personal covenants/agreements.

Now lets confuse the matter further by adding John 9:31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will.


Now make sense of that !






Offline francis drake

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2016, 10:11:58 PM »
Yes I was quite happy frequenting a certain place each week until my wife left to go elsewhere - mainly for the sake of other members of the family, but also because her parents were @ another Church.

So I felt it odd that we both went to different meeting places and decided to follow her [for the sake of others in the family]

That meant leaving my ministry behind and doing things simply for others.

Now this is another example of choices affecting and influencing other peoples choices.

Yet another example of choice

Too true, but did your future in either church depend on you or your family, or did God make you do it.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline francis drake

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2016, 10:53:19 PM »
Having already given many examples were God chooses our will as we give our lives over to God
I got lost here. I don't remember the examples where God chooses our will.
Quote
I want to focus now on an even deeper reality when our wills change God's Will. [this does not change God's Sovereign Will]
I agree that when we apparently change God's will, (as with Hezekiah's death or Abraham ref Sodom and Lot), it is His sovereign will that we exercise such bold faith.
Quote
Isaiah 38:5  "Go and tell Hezekiah, 'This is what the LORD, the God of your father David, says: I have heard your
 prayer and seen your tears; I will add fifteen years to your life.


Now pryer to this God said Isaiah 38:1 "This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to
die; you will not recover."


God had decided upon that which was already decided since long ago

The result of God's desicion due to Hezekiah's plea [descision] now this is basically "a healing that prolongs a life"

This is also about the power of prayer and how God changes His-tory through prayer.

Yet being a sign in the OT we see the result of this change

Now because of this change in history Manasseh was born - now because of the sin of Hezekiah after being healed in those fifteen
years Hezekiah brought a generational curse on Manasseh.
No no no. There was no change in history whatsoever!
God responded to a freewill prayer of Hezekiah that was foreseen by Him before the creation of the world. God always knows in advance who will choose what why and when. There are no alternative scenarios for an all knowing all seeing eternal timeless God. Despite giving mankind freedom to choose, God still achieves his ultimate objectives.
God does not need to manipulate mankind against his will unless it is judgement time.
Quote
Here Manasseh [son of hezekiah] changes History due to God's desicion and from him came his descendants [all due to a prayer]

That changed history [as there were many descendants [and brought evil upon generations]


Here we see the relational aspect of will's and desciion making between personal covenants/agreements.

Now lets confuse the matter further by adding John 9:31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will.


Now make sense of that !
If we take John9v31 as a legal formula, then we could rightly also say that if our prayers don't get answered, then we must all be sinners
Its interesting how much prayer of christians never get answered isn't it...............? Filthy sinners the lot of them.

Its quite sad really, but depending on our level of churchianity, we all have our own definition of what a sinner is. (Usually everyone else!)
In that context, I take note of James4v6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

The Pharisees were full of pride, thus excluding themselves from a listening God.
The rejected sinner in the street sincerely cries out to God, and God listens intently.

Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2016, 01:23:58 AM »
Quote
Quote from: Question on Yesterday at 01:59:37 AM

    Having already given many examples were God chooses our will as we give our lives over to God

I got lost here. I don't remember the examples where God chooses our will.

My bad, I mean we give our will over to God

This is where choices get mixed up

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2016, 01:28:59 AM »
Quote
No no no. There was no change in history whatsoever!
God responded to a freewill prayer of Hezekiah that was foreseen by Him before the creation of the world. God always knows in advance who will choose what why and when. There are no alternative scenarios for an all knowing all seeing eternal timeless God. Despite giving mankind freedom to choose, God still achieves his ultimate objectives.

So God knew Adam and Eve would sin and already planned His intervention ! as He already knew about satan's fall and the third 0f angels, as He already knew our free will decsions before we made them .

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2016, 01:34:07 AM »
So why is God preparing a place for us, rather than "having already prepared a place ?"


Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2016, 01:50:01 AM »
This because we are being trransformed into His Likeness 2 Corinthians 3:18 And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his image with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

So He prepares a place for us......

This seems to assume an unknown element ?

Maybe this is about our choices that He already knows ? but the end is yet to be and so all is uncomplete

Therefore everything is already decided and completed by the Lord God and always was



Offline francis drake

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2016, 07:36:57 AM »
So God knew Adam and Eve would sin and already planned His intervention ! as He already knew about satan's fall and the third 0f angels, as He already knew our free will decsions before we made them .

Amen. There can be no other interpretation of God's foreknowledge.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)