Author Topic: Does the future depend on us or God ?  (Read 1770 times)

Description: Is our future dependant on God or us

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Offline francis drake

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2016, 09:29:34 AM »
Okay so lets turn this around and ask "was the damnation of sodom and gomorrah temporal or eternal ?"

I suspect it was both temporal and eternal.
Look at the astonishing discourse between the Lord and Abraham. (Which again demonstrates God working within man's freewill.

Gen18v16And the men rose up from there, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.
17And the LORD said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;

Here we see the Lord merely dropping a hint to see Abraham's reaction. Obviously, knowing the end from the beginning, the test was for Abraham's benefit to draw him into knowing more of the nature of God. ie., God's plans can be challenged!

18Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do righteousness and justice; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he has spoken of him.


For Abraham to fulfill this role, he needed to truly understand the character of God.

20And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave;
21I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry, which has come unto me; and if not, I will know.


The verdict is surely guilty, and time for the judgement to be meted out, just so Abraham was clear.

22And the men turned their faces from there, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.
23And Abraham drew near, and said, will you also destroy the righteous with the wicked?


Abraham takes a deep and fearful breath and steps right in front of the creator God. But that was the Lord's intended purpose in discussing Sodom in the earshot of Abraham. The Lord is always looking for those to stand in the gap..............if He can wake the church from its sleep.

24Suppose there be fifty righteous within the city: will you also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are there?
25That be far from you to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from you: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?


An outrageous challenge, telling the Lord how to run his business, but entirely according to the Lord's plan. However, in no way do we see God controlling Abraham.

26And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

Wow, wow, God listened to me!!!!! I wonder if I can stretch it a bit further, risk a little more for that foolish nephew of mine in Sodom?

27And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, who am but dust and ashes:
28Suppose there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: will you destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.


Gulp, the Lord still didn't smite me for this affrontery.............he listened to me? Wow. Gently tiptoe a little more....

29And he spoke unto him yet again, and said, Suppose there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.
30And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Suppose there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.


This is an amazing discovery for Abraham, indeed for mankind. We have a God who can be entreated and who doesn't necessarily want to destroy mankind, but must do so for righteousness sake...................unless someone intercedes.

31And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Suppose there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
32And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Suppose ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.
33And the LORD went his way, as soon as he had left speaking with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.


Abraham intercedes, challenging the judge of all the earth to do right. His nephew is nowhere mentioned, therefore any rescue attempt must include not just Lot, but all similar people.

God's judgement on a nation or a city doesn't necessarily mean that all within are evil. Unfortunately when we make our bed with God's enemies, we suffer the same fate. That's why the history of the bible is one of the Lord calling people out. Out of Ur, out of Haran, out of Egypt, out of Babylon etc.
The same is with incorporating God's enemies into your own inheritance.
Numbers33v55 55But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell. 56Moreover it shall come to pass, that I shall do unto you, as I thought to do unto them.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline francis drake

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2016, 12:02:04 PM »
It will take me a while to work through all these answers -  but one thing I am getting at as I try to read into you is this......

Is "born again" about my choice ? a simple question but I really want an answer to this - if in doubt please read my previous posts   :blank:
Being born again is every man's own personal choice of response to the Holy Spirit.
And at risk of accusations of heresy, I want to make it clear that the church has got it completely wrong, and that New Birth has no connection with anyone saying he believes Jesus died for him! (despite the fact that Jesus clearly did)

How can an unbeliever truly declare his trust in Jesus's death when God says that the death of Jesus is incomprehensible to unbelievers.
1Cor1v18For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but it is God's power to us who are being saved.

Biblical Fact1. Nobody being unregenerate can possibly comprehend why Jesus died for him, its just a load of religious nonsense.
Biblical Fact2. The message of the cross is solely for believers, the sancified ones.
Biblical fact3. The message of the cross is about the power of God through the blood covenant he has made with us.
Biblical fact4. It is only by the blood, and by the proclaiming of that blood that we can overcome Satan's accusations.

I am of course not negating that anyone being born again was only made possible by the death of Jesus the second Adam. He who paid for the failures of the first Adam.
Quote
This is a deep search of mine - for which I need an answer [not speaking in the third person this time] and I know the answer but I want you to confirm it  knit:
Seeing that Adam and Eve never repented nudge nudge . please do not give the answer that you know I want [or just to be polite - "not that you would  :wink:]  but rather  the answer that you know yourself]
I personally believe by inference that Adam and Eve were born again, but yet to see clear scriptural proof. I think it is a worse mistake to assume they were not born again. As stated previously, Abel was certainly born again.

Ref your search. If you want to really know where I stand, it might help to skim my posts on a topic I started in June last year. I am passionate about this subject being one the Lord has led me through for many decades.
http://www.1faith.co.uk/safeplace-for-newbie-and-wannabie-christians/salvation-and-born-again-nonsense/

Part of that passion is based on the fact that I already knew the Lord and had heard him speaking to me as a child, long before I ever heard what the cross was about.
Likewise my wife also knew the Lord as a 3 year old child long before hearing anything of the cross.
We both come from non christian families.
http://www.1faith.co.uk/safeplace-for-newbie-and-wannabie-christians/salvation-and-born-again-nonsense/
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2016, 12:54:14 AM »
thanks will take time to ingest

Offline francis drake

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2016, 09:35:23 AM »
thanks will take time to ingest

I look forward to your replies.
Meanwhile I shall cogitate and see if I can chuck more ingredients into the mix.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline francis drake

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2016, 09:50:10 AM »
Did Adam's future depend on him or God?
Lets have a look see.-

Gen3v17And unto Adam he said, Because you have listened unto the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree, of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it:

Above we see the Lord directly confronting Adam because of his bad choices, and then spelling out the following results of that disobedience.-

cursed is the ground for your sake; in sorrow shall you eat of it all the days of your life; 18Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to you; and you shall eat the plants of the field; 19In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread, till you return unto the ground; for out of it were you taken: for dust you are, and unto dust shall you return.

The Lord here makes it clear that Adam alone determined his future, not God.
ie. The cursing that Adam brought down on his own head and on the planet were a direct result of his own freewill decision, not God.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline francis drake

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2016, 10:14:58 AM »
Deut28.v1And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: 2And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.

3Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.

4Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep
Blessed
blessed'
blessed.....etc..


From Deuteronomy28v1 to v14 we have an extraordinary list of wonderful blessings for Israel if they choose to obey the Lord.

However from verse 15 onwards we also see a list of curses pronounced against then should they forsake the Lord and seek other Gods.

15But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:

16Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.

17Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.

18Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.

19Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.

20The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me. 21The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it. 22The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish. 23And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. 24The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
Curse
curse
curse
etc etc etc.....


The warnings of great evil go on in the same manner all the way to the end of the chapter in verse 68. Every last curse stated as a result of their own freewill choice to reject the Lord's sovereignty.

Sadly Israel chose to go their own way, and thus they reaped what they sowed.

And just as the word of the Lord spells out above, the future of Israel depended entirely on Israel, not God.
To claim otherwise does violence to the word of God.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2016, 02:34:27 PM »
I look forward to your replies.
Meanwhile I shall cogitate and see if I can chuck more ingredients into the mix.

Chef Ramsay  :-X

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2016, 01:09:46 AM »
Yes I was quite happy frequenting a certain place each week until my wife left to go elsewhere - mainly for the sake of other members of the family, but also because her parents were @ another Church.

So I felt it odd that we both went to different meeting places and decided to follow her [for the sake of others in the family]

That meant leaving my ministry behind and doing things simply for others.

Now this is another example of choices affecting and influencing other peoples choices.

Yet another example of choice