Author Topic: Does the future depend on us or God ?  (Read 1766 times)

Description: Is our future dependant on God or us

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Offline francis drake

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2016, 10:20:33 PM »
Did Job ever have a choice as to whether he went through the attacks from satan or not ? [I do not think so] as it was more  about his responses to the situaton he was in.
I get cheesed off when pious christians tell me they are going through a "Job period of testing", when in reality its usually because they are trying to sort out a mess of their own carnal making.

God said that there was nobody on earth like Job, thus he was a special target of Satan.
Satan is a one man band and not omni present, so unless we have the spiritual status of Job, we shouldn't get above ourselves.

Like Moses or Abraham, Job had set himself completely apart to serve the Lord.
Satan boastfully stood before God and declared that he had been "Walking to and fro on the earth" which is an idiom which simply means, "I've been surveying my domain!" God's answer was, "Really, what about Job then?"
God knew that a war would start, but despite the horror that he would go through, Job was up for it.
1Cor10v13 No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

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Yet these attacks are seen as a testing by God [and allowed by Him} it is almost as if He owns the attacker and authorises it to be .

Yet He makes it a testing rather than an attack for His glory

He authorises the attack to be a testing [without our consent]  but with God's consent

Here I do not see the future of Job in his hands - but in God's, as God gives double back.
I see Job's future entirely in his own hands.
Job could have been like his friends or his wife, and just rolled over and died after cursing God. Instead Job stood faithfully by everything he knew about the character of God. That is why God was able to heal and restore double.

...............and nothing of what happened on earth, is an indication of the eternal status of his family members.
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Unless of course yet again you see this story of a perons life as an individual entity and only applying to Job.
No, I do not see the Lord changing his character one bit.
God knew exactly what Job was capable of and dealt with him in the light of that. He does exactly the same with Abraham, with you, and with me.
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As in the case of Adam and Eve - so here we segment the bible into parts.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline francis drake

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2016, 11:00:16 PM »
So obviously - in stephen's case he must have chosen to be stoned to death !
Certainly Stephen chose to risk all for the gospel.
However he always had freewill as far as the Lord was concerned. Of course evil Pharisees overrode that freewill and killed him. Nevertheless, he was so filled with the spirit that he could look up and see heaven from earth.
Interestingly we see the same spirit filled joyful attitude as Bishops Latimer and Ridley were burnt at the stake by the Catholic church in 1555.
 Then they brought a faggot, kindled with fire, and laid the same down at Dr. Ridley's feet. To whom Master Latimer spake in this manner "Be of good comfort, Master Ridley, and play the man. We shall this day light such a candle, by God's grace, in England, as I trust shall never be put out."
The whole story of their execution is recorded in Foxes Book of Martyrs http://www.exclassics.com/foxe/foxe323.htm
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I do not think so and I do not think it was his desicion either.

Acts 7:59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit."


I think in this case stephen would have preferred to be like John and to be the beloved disciple umm not sure as John was left on an island as a prisoner and boiled in oil .

It seems our future's are not dependent on us ..... and our decisions have no relation to our destinies.
This has no logic whatsoever. Obviously God knows the end from the beginning, but in no place do we see God manipulating our decisions, nor have you given any evidence of that..
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Here the disciples gave their futures  to God - only to find a destiny  that they would not have decided themselves.

As I am also sure the disciple Paul would not have chosen house imprisonment  and it seems doing the will of the lord means a denial of self
That's just plain wrong.
Acts21v13Then Paul answered, "Why are you weeping and breaking my heart? I am ready not only to be bound, but also to die in Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus."

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In all these instances God is in control of the future and not the people
Nope, again you are plain wrong.
Paul was prophetically warned that he was heading for death by Agabus.
Acts21v11Coming over to us, he took Paul?s belt, tied his own hands and feet with it and said, ?The Holy Spirit says, ?In this way the Jewish leaders in Jerusalem will bind the owner of this belt and will hand him over to the Gentiles.? ?
In full knowledge of what awaited him, Paul carried on the journey that ultimately led to his death.
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It seems the defining differnece here is that the more people give their lives to God - the more God takes control of their lives - going against their own desires.

I see this all through the bible
Thank you Q. That puts the balance. The Lord effectively gets our permission for the various stages of the journey, we know the risks, but not always the details.
As you say, "going against their desires", but our desires can be overruled by our own freewill to walk in obedience to God's desires.
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And concluding with the book of revelations whiuch goes against the will of mankind  - to destroy and  make a new earth.

Matthew 24:38  For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark;
As the Lord told Abraham, his offspring would be captive for 400 years and would not return to Canaan until the iniquity of the Amorites was full.
ie. God permits man freewill until final judgement time arrives which always overrules everything. I am not questioning that.
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I think this would be against the peoples will's and choices - I mean if I am just married or getting married  why would I be denied a future with my new family ...


On the other hand - I might decide to rebel and go my own way and in this sense I am my own god and I decide my future.

Hope you get it ?
I don't really think the flood, or Sodom and Gomorrah etc are a part of this debate as we all agree that God will finally overrule and judge his enemies.
Nevertheless, it is they who freely choose to oppose God and make themselves his enemy in the first place.
http://www.exclassics.com/foxe/foxe323.htm
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline francis drake

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2016, 11:03:29 PM »
Question for @Question.
1) Are you trying to give me a head ache with the litany of questions?
2) Why such an awkward nametag. It makes using the word "question" quite inconvenient.

Interesting that you and Seeker are the only ones to have a forum section named after you both.

Interesting topic tho.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2016, 02:26:24 AM »
Aww you tried to answer every question except that not ever sentence was a question ! and I was simply giving an alternative view . [as others might see it and not necessarily my own view either  :)

I see in you a persistance and determination [which I like] as you  do not give up [I suppose this must be why you were so sucessful in business]

And of course you know you get on peoples nerves   :azn: [I like this] and it must be seen as a positive.

I also  like your way of being friendly [which can be seen as confrontational  and offending] but I do not believe you intend it to be seen in this way.

Anyway back to the topic






Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2016, 02:31:10 AM »
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So yes, salvation for Nineveh was temporal.

Okay so lets turn this around and ask "was the damnation of sodom and gomorrah temporal or eternal ?"

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2016, 02:38:30 AM »
It will take me a while to work through all these answers -  but one thing I am getting at as I try to read into you is this......

Is "born again" about my choice ? a simple question but I really want an answer to this - if in doubt please read my previous posts   :blank:

This is a deep search of mine - for which I need an answer [not speaking in the third person this time] and I know the answer but I want you to confirm it  knit:


Seeing that Adan and Eve never repented nudge nudge . please do not give the answer that you know I want [or just to be polite - "not that you would  :wink:]  but rather  the answer that you know yourself]

I hope in faith .




Offline faithman

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2016, 02:54:50 AM »
We must have faith in Jesus




Offline francis drake

Re: Does the future depend on us or God ?
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2016, 08:41:31 AM »
Aww you tried to answer every question except that not ever sentence was a question ! and I was simply giving an alternative view . [as others might see it and not necessarily my own view either  :)

I see in you a persistance and determination [which I like] as you  do not give up [I suppose this must be why you were so sucessful in business]
?????????????? Curious, how do you know about my business life??????????
I am deeply persistent in the areas that God has spoken to me about. That does not mean my interpretation is perfect, as you must well know!
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And of course you know you get on peoples nerves   :azn: [I like this] and it must be seen as a positive.
What me............getting on people's nerves..............Nooo, you've got that all wrong.
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I also  like your way of being friendly [which can be seen as confrontational  and offending] but I do not believe you intend it to be seen in this way.
Before returning to Yorkshire a couple of years ago, I spent 40 years on the south coast and was constantly in trouble for telling it straight instead of stroking people's egos.
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Anyway back to the topic

I have really enjoyed our dialogue. Iron sharpens iron, and we each need the body to function together. Sadly most are happy to sit back and be led by the nose whilst they try to sleep. 8)
Unless our understandings can withstand interrogation from other viewpoints, they remain insecure human ideologies. old:
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)