Author Topic: Do you believe in Evolution?  (Read 24804 times)

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Offline Deborah

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Re: Do you believe in Evolution?
« Reply #216 on: January 18, 2020, 12:02:37 PM »
I ask you questions. You don't answer anything. You don't want to debate. So your mind appears fixed.
I'm happy to debate, but this conversation hardly counts as one - not when you repeatedly misquote me, put words into my mouth, and fire off false accusations.

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Q1) Why do you ignore the science on mutation rates?

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Q3. How does Evolution Theory fit with the scientific data about the rate of mutations?

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Q4. Why are you ignoring the science?

Your "science" is 80 years out of date. We now know that mutation rates vary enormously between different organisms, The HIV virus, for example, mutates thousands of times faster than E coli bacteria. We also know that viruses can insert themselves into the genome of larger organisms, potentially adding dozens of new genes. So evolution doesn't depend on a single slow mutation rate. (And in any case, who's to say that God hasn't been directing the whole process?)

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Q2) Again, name me one scientist who believes in the Theory of Evolution.

Why do I need to name anyone? You've already named Richard Dawkins. And we both know that there are thousands of others. It seems to me that you're just trying to avoid answering my question.

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Wrong. The Theory has always presumed to explain not only diversity but the origin of species. It also presumes to explain diversity by way of natural selection, but it also has theories about why races get preserved in the struggle for life.

That would explain why Darwin wrote a book called: "On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life".
You are agreeing with me. The origin of species is part of diversity. It's not the same thing as the origin of life.
 
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It's clear you can't defend your faith, you can only  refer to unnamed authorities.
I'm not trying to defend my faith to you. For the science, I have referred you to Biologos. I'm no expert on evolutionary science, so they explain it much better than I could.

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You react as if belief is based on a half-remembered teacher.

This is pure fantasy on your part. Primary school? It's over 50 years since I was in primary school, and back then science didn't feature in the curriculum. We learned about evolution in A-level biology - and there wasn't much to learn, as the evidence was confined to a few fossils and Darwin's theories. Haven't times changed since then! It's hard to believe now, but back in the 1970s this wasn't a controversial subject for Christians. When I became a Christian, I was able to put it on the back burner for decades. More recently, I've been researching both the science and the theology. So my beliefs are not uninformed. I just see no reason to impose them on other people.




"Blessed is the one who always trembles before God,
but whoever hardens their heart falls into trouble." (Proverbs 28:14)

Offline davetaff

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Re: Do you believe in Evolution?
« Reply #217 on: January 18, 2020, 01:37:58 PM »
Hi Cacadores
Thank you for your posts you said

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. The modern dating system is a weak supposition. On its own, it does not disprove a literal interpretation of Genesis nor can it prove the Earth is older than 6023 years old         

Neither can you prove the earth is 6023 years old to my tiny mind it is illogical and makes no sense.
It would mean God created everything 6023 years ago which would mean dinosaurs and many other species which fossils are a proof.
Then God for no apparent reason killed them all of then he created man they got contaminated so he killed them of in the flood a!l this in a comparatively short time why??????

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Cacadores

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Re: Do you believe in Evolution?
« Reply #218 on: January 18, 2020, 02:29:44 PM »
I'm happy to debate, but this conversation hardly counts as one - not when you repeatedly misquote me, put words into my mouth, and fire off false accusations.

1) Please show examples of those accusations. Or retract.
Your "science" is 80 years out of date.

Then why are you finding it so hard to rebut it?

You appear to bow before the god of modernism. It is selective, of course. Is the Bible "out of date"? The Theory of Relativity "out of date"? The Origen of the Species "out of date"? Newton's Laws of Motion?! All older than 80 years!
Please don't be silly. Concentrate on your ability to reason. That is the skill God made available to you.

We now know that mutation rates vary enormously between different organisms, The HIV virus, for example, mutates thousands of times faster than E coli bacteria.

Well that's odd. Because HIV has never been satisfactorilly isolated and as it would be the only retro-viral that could be passed through bodily contact there are questions about its real ability alone to damage the immune system too.
http://theperthgroup.com/FAQ/question7.html
https://www.duesberg.com/
It's genomic signature has not been mapped and therefore it's mutations are unknown. A non-starter.

We also know that viruses can insert themselves into the genome of larger organisms, potentially adding dozens of new genes.

Yes, and destroying them too. But no new information overall. Nothing a virus could add to a fish gene could make it grow knees. Which is what species development requires. And, there's another problem. Viruses require a host. How can two mutually sustainable organisms "evolve" to work together? Unless they were created together? That is a question for you to ponder.

And look at your word "potentially". So whomever you borrowed that from has no idea. Here's an extract from "Frontiers in Micro-biology" talking about viruses. They write: this "may stimulate the thinking about viruses as early possible forms of life. Apart from our view ?viruses first?, there are others such as ?proteins first? and ?metabolism first.?

These are random speculations. But more importantly, at the cutting edge of micro-biology today is the admission that there was not enough time for the sheer numbers of early viruses required. They cannot beat the maths test.

Kasting J. F., Whitmire D. P., Reynolds R. T. (1993). Habitable zones around main sequence stars. Icarus 101 108?128. 10.1006/icar.1993.1010
The commentary on this paper states that "the astronomical number of expected exoplanets [required] suggests" that there is not a "high statistical chance that life.... started on the early Earth".
Why do I need to name anyone? You've already named Richard Dawkins.

Richard Dawkins, like every scientist involved in the field, does not believe that life "evolved" on Earth. You couldn't find a single one, could you?
It seems to me that you're just trying to avoid answering my question.
You are agreeing with me. The origin of species is part of diversity.

Means nothing. We live in a state of entropy. Genes are being lost and destroyed, no new information is being "created" except a handful of viable mutations that have had no time to turn any species into another. An antilope will never develop a longer neck and turn into a girraff. You cannot create information randomly.

We've tried it. You can run a computer programme to randomly generate billions of computer code sequencies using 1s and 0s. But it will never, never, create a viable operating system. Whereas the sequence of amino acids within chromosomes require far more numbers to do far more complicated tasks. It is literally impossible. You cannot create information. A computer program requires a sentient programmer. Fact. This fact alone is proof that Creation requires a sentient Creator.

I'm not trying to defend my faith to you. For the science, I have referred you to Biologos. I'm no expert on evolutionary science, so they explain it much better than I could.

The science does not support you, Deborah. You've taken on a theory that doesn't work, it seems, because you've been exposed to it by others, likely unthinkingly.

You deny the Bible on grounds you cannot (and scientists cannot) explain. That is the definition of placing before you a false god.

Please come back to us
http://theperthgroup.com/FAQ/question7.html
https://www.duesberg.com/

Offline Deborah

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Re: Do you believe in Evolution?
« Reply #219 on: January 18, 2020, 03:17:26 PM »
1) Please show examples of those accusations.

I already have.

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Please come back to us

These are HIV/AIDS denial websites. They are promoting dangerous misinformation and lies about HIV and AIDS. So much for your views on "science"!
"Blessed is the one who always trembles before God,
but whoever hardens their heart falls into trouble." (Proverbs 28:14)

Offline Cacadores

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Re: Do you believe in Evolution?
« Reply #220 on: January 19, 2020, 12:15:22 AM »
Despite the false information posted above,

Peter H. Duesberg, Ph.D. is a professor of Molecular and Cell Biology at the University of California, Berkeley, a world-renouned microbiologist and an expert on retro-virals.

 He was elected to the National Academy of Sciences in 1986. He is also the recipient of a seven-year Outstanding Investigator Grant from the National Institutes of Health.

He has had peer-review papers published
in Cancer Research, Lancet, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Science, Nature, Journal of AIDS, AIDS Forschung, Biomedicine and Pharmacotherapeutics, New England Journal of Medicine and Research in Immunology.

That the above poster would seek to trash a man's reputation like that makes me wonder why.

The 9th Commandment tells us not to lie. Other parts of the Bible warn us against gossip.

Proverbs 10:18
He who conceals hatred has lying lips, And he who spreads slander is a fool

Psalm 101:5
Whoever secretly slanders his neighbor, him I will destroy; No one who has a haughty look and an arrogant heart will I endure.

Please remember, the devil is the accuser:

Revelation 12:10
Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, 'Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

I hope the person concerned will repent of the  accusations and come back.

Offline Cacadores

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Re: Do you believe in Evolution?
« Reply #221 on: January 19, 2020, 01:04:12 AM »
Hi

Hello. Thank you for responding with a good question.
Neither can you prove the earth is 6023 years old to my tiny mind it is illogical and makes no sense.

Trust your maker. He will provide the tools. He is the Logos. He offers reason, logic and truth to us in the Spirit.

You have taken a faith stance against the Bible for some reason. Because, of course, you probably don't know the proof offered to deny it in detail. That's OK. I have taken a faith stance to believe the Bible. I also believe logic and science will support the Bible. We can see.

It would mean God created everything 6023 years ago which would mean dinosaurs and many other species

Yes. You sound surprised! Yet this is not news!
which fossils are a proof.

Indeed they are. Thank you.
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Then God for no apparent reason killed them all of then he created man they got contaminated so he killed them of in the flood a!l this in a comparatively short time why??????

I don't know where you get that from. The Bible clearly says that both man and the animals were created on day six.

As for the reasons for the flood:

the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually? (Genesis 6:5) and it grieved God ?to his heart? (Genesis 6).

And you probably know there is evidence of  a great flood from all around the world. And evidence of an ark lying on Mount Ararat in Turkey.

So why not articulate what you beleive exactly? Or why you are sceptical of the Bible? Is there anything in particular?

I am not avoiding discussing the evidence but it's a huge subject. Perhaps we could just first agree what kind of evidence would satisfy you. How about if we could show there were dinosaurs that could have been  living less than 6000 years ago?

Offline Deborah

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Re: Do you believe in Evolution?
« Reply #222 on: January 19, 2020, 09:16:57 AM »
Peter H. Duesberg, Ph.D. is a professor of Molecular and Cell Biology at the University of California, Berkeley, a world-renouned microbiologist and an expert on retro-virals.

 He was elected to the National Academy of Sciences in 1986. He is also the recipient of a seven-year Outstanding Investigator Grant from the National Institutes of Health.

He has had peer-review papers published
in Cancer Research, Lancet, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Science, Nature, Journal of AIDS, AIDS Forschung, Biomedicine and Pharmacotherapeutics, New England Journal of Medicine and Research in Immunology.

That the above poster would seek to trash a man's reputation like that makes me wonder why.

So what if he is a professor and a world-renowned expert? He can still be wrong about something - and in this case he is.
I'm not "seeking to trash his reputation" - it's already well and truly trashed, and with good reason! He's notorious in medical and scientific circles for his AIDS denialism, and has been credited with persuading the South African government to withhold HIV testing and antiretroviral treatment, causing hundreds of thousands of preventable deaths. (see the Wikipedia article about him).

I wonder why you are supporting his point of view? It certainly destroys your own credibility.

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The 9th Commandment tells us not to lie.
and I don't



"Blessed is the one who always trembles before God,
but whoever hardens their heart falls into trouble." (Proverbs 28:14)

Offline davetaff

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Re: Do you believe in Evolution?
« Reply #223 on: January 19, 2020, 12:58:20 PM »
Hi Cacadores
Thank you for your reply you said

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.    I don't know where you get that from. The Bible clearly says that both man and the animals were created on day six   

Then in verse 28 he says

.   28  And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth   

What does he mean by replenish sounds to me I Like this is said after the flood only then did the earth need replenishing.

What else did God say which concerns things after the flood.

.    Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee   

Then in Romans 8 we have.

.   22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now       

Is God in Genesis speaking about a woman giving birth I would have thought women would always be in pain giving birth.
I think  God is speaking of the church the bride of Christ who would give birth to the sons of God it has been a long and painful process.

Love and Peace
Dave



 

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