Genesis and the OT

[TJ]

Hi I'm new here so apologies if I'm gatecrashing a conversation that's already covered this! The way I've always tried to make sense of how people could be saved before Jesus came is this:

We are all saved by faith in God's Word - but the amount of God's Word that people have had available to them has differed over time and differs even now according to our life circumstances.  People who lived in the time before Jesus didn't have the full revelation of God's Word through Jesus Christ like we have, but they were still expected to be faithful to whatever bit they did have.  It's like for people who have never heard of Jesus today - as it says in the passage Dave quoted they have bits of God's Word written in their hearts and so can be saved by having faith in that.  Elsewhere (Romans 1:20) the scripture says that everyone can see God's nature through his creation - so if that's the only bit of God's Word a person has available they can still be saved by responding with faith in God's Word as revealed in creation.

In other words, we all need to be faithful to whatever bit of God's word we have access to ("according to the light we have received" it says somewhere, but I can't find it right now!) - and that will differ from person to person and at different ages as God progressively reveals more and more of himself.  I've found in my own life that when we do respond with faith towards that little bit that we have received (whether it's simply recognising God through the beauty of creation or at the other extreme reading the entire Bible from cover to cover ...)then he shows us a bit more and then a bit more ... it's a journey that will only end when we see him face to face and then we will know him fully.  Can't wait for that day!!
Blessings
Kim

Hi @kim 

Do you think we are accountable for those things we do not comprehend /understand ?

Would God give us light yet confound us !

Lets compare

Ot and NT

Genesis 1:3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.

2 Corinthians 4:6  For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God's glory displayed in the face of Christ.

Moses killed a person as did David and many more.

Re : King James states "Thou shalt not kill." Exodus 20:13; now go too NT Matthew 19:18;

So were these people under God's grace or under the law ?

[TJ]

Having said that - I am reminded of Cain killing abel  and how abel cried out from the ground as if in revenge

Genesis 4:10 The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground.

It is almost as if "The Lord only punishes those who are His"

And the punished seem to complain more about their punishment than their sin.

Yet Cain is not seen as God's child.

I read the bible that states "you shall not kill" yet I see God's chosen "kill" ?

Yet these are still God's anointed [as was Israel] "David,Saul,Moses etc"

 Guest  over to you

[kim]

Hi TJ
Hmmm, interesting: were the OT characters under law or grace ... I guess I don't actually see a contradiction between law and grace - the law shows us God's standards and then when we admit we can't meet them we're ready to appreciate grace!  The law was a "caretaker to lead us to Christ".  Until we get to the point where we admit we can't ever hope to live right through our own efforts we won't accept the help God's been offering.  I think that help was available all along - in the OT people like David received it by believing in God's word, same as we do now, except that we now have greater revelation of that word, through Jesus - the word who became flesh.

Also I sometimes wonder if the OT rules were simplified like we would for a child, because people weren't able to understand more.  So for example we tell young kids 'don't talk to strangers' because that's easy for them to understand and live by, until they get mature enough to understand that it's OK to talk to some strangers - otherwise they would never meet anyone new!  What do others think?

Thanks for making me think - it's good to have discussions which send me back to the Bible to check my thoughts!!

God bless
Kim

[davetaff]

Hi Kim
Welcome to 1faith I enjoyed reading them interesting point of view you asked

Hmmm, interesting: were the OT characters under law or grace ... I guess I don't actually see a contradiction between law and grace 

I've done a quick search and found a few verses which may help us.

 Gen 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Exo_33:12  And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.

So it would seam those whom God chose  to do his work where under grace as for the rest I think this may answer the question.

Zec_12:10  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Which seams to indicate they would not come under grace until our Lord was crucified, Maybe this question needs more work.

Love and Peace
Dave   

[kim]

Hi Dave
Thanks for this - I've never picked up on the word 'grace' in those scriptures relating to Noah and Moses before (probably because I usually use the NIV which translates it 'favour' - essentially the same thing of course!). 
Interesting too that the Zechariah passage says it's God's initiative to draw people to turn to him: when he pours out his spirit of grace and supplication.  I suppose folk are still free to refuse?  Maybe this also refers to God giving people yet further revelation of himself.  His Spirit was given to specific people to do specific jobs even before Pentecost, but I wonder if the prophecy in Zechariah speaks of a time when everyone will have their eyes opened to God's offer of grace?  In which case, the question I ask myself is: has this happened yet?  Was it accomplished at Pentecost or does this refer to a time still to come) (or both? since some prophecies seem to have several 'layers' of fulfilment).  What do you/others think about this?
Thanks for making me think!
Blessings
Kim

[TJ]

Hi Kim
Welcome to 1faith I enjoyed reading them interesting point of view you asked
I've done a quick search and found a few verses which may help us.

 Gen 6:8  But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
Exo_33:12  And Moses said unto the LORD, See, thou sayest unto me, Bring up this people: and thou hast not let me know whom thou wilt send with me. Yet thou hast said, I know thee by name, and thou hast also found grace in my sight.

So it would seam those whom God chose  to do his work where under grace as for the rest I think this may answer the question.

Zec_12:10  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Which seams to indicate they would not come under grace until our Lord was crucified, Maybe this question needs more work.

Love and Peace
Dave

Is'nt this God's prophetic word ......http://www.1faith.co.uk/my-blog-and-blogging-forum/words'n-images/msg57687/?topicseen#msg57687 - Joel 2:28

When God pours out His Spirit of Grace, Wisdom, Isaiah 11:2  The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him-- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of might, the Spirit of the knowledge and fear of the LORD

Zechariah 12:10  And I will pour on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and
 of supplications: and they shall look on me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for
his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Ax David mourned for the loss of his son and repented - this is Jerusalem and again we see  evil forces at work even
then......

Now see what God says of the future - when Israel will come back to the Lord [like the remnant did - those exiled and
returning]  Ezekiel 39:29 I will no longer hide my face from them, for I will pour out my Spirit on the people of
Israel, declares the Sovereign LORD."


Here God pours out His Spirit on all flesh - [For God's Grace - see : Isaiah 54:9 "For this is like the days of Noah to Me, When I swore that the waters of Noah Would not flood the earth again; So I have sworn that I will not be angry with you Nor will I rebuke you.


And as for God's pentecost Ezekiel 37:14 "I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have spoken and done it," declares the LORD


Here in King David we see the Grace and wisdom of God as he repents [in sackcloth and ashes - as in his day]

I would suggest rather than "until the Lord was crucified - it was until a person repented]

Now King Solomion never seemed to repent - so was he born again ?

If not  then why should we cry and mourn for a lost child that never belonged to God ?

Ahh but is'nt God's Spiirt poured out on all flesh ?



Somtimes the child has to go as the prodigal son to eat with swine and then return [still the child] "speaking of Israel]


http://www.1faith.co.uk/my-blog-and-blogging-forum/words'n-images/msg57687/?topicseen#msg57687

[davetaff]

Hi Kim
Thanks for your post I looked up the word grace and found this interpretation which I Liked

Grace
 the freely given, unmerited favor and love of God. the influence or spirit of God operating in humans to regenerate or strengthen them. a virtue or excellence of divine origin: the Christian graces. Also called state of grace.

Unmerited favour nothing we can work for its a free gift from God what is Gods free gift is it not Jesus Christ which he sent into the world to die for us sinners he not only died for us but also all those who came before his death and resurrection.
I think that this verse.

 Zechariah 12:10  And I will pour on the house of David, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and
 of supplications: and they shall look on me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for
his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

I think that with Christs resurrection Gods grace was poured out on Israel and all those who came before. the next question is when will they look on the one they have pierced and mourn for him Israel as a nation has not done it so far so it must be a future event.
Maybe this verse from mathew may help.

Mat_19:28  And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

This has to be in Christs millennial reign in a way Israel will be raised from the dead to be judged by Christ and his apostles.

Love and Peace
Dave 
     

[kim]

Hi Dave
Thanks for your post - I love the definition of grace - it still brings me out in a tingle of excitement even after nearly 30 years as a Christian!
Just had another thought on this question of how the OT Jews could be saved before Christ's death - 1 Peter 3:19-20 says Christ went and preached to them 'after being made alive in the spirit' after his death.  I've never been quite sure what to make of this - seems like maybe they got a second chance to respond now that the full revelation of God's plan of salvation had been revealed?  I suppose the passage you quoted from Zechariah could refer to this occasion or to the future.  It does say somewhere that 'all Israel will be saved' though- in which case it must include those alive now, so that would fit with the idea of it being during the millennial reign of Christ. Hmmm, more food for thought!  I'm pleased I found this site - am enjoying the challenge of getting the cog wheels in my brain turning again!
Thanks
Kim