Author Topic: Genesis and the OT  (Read 6482 times)

Description: Finding Christ in the OT

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Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #392 on: January 10, 2018, 02:50:23 PM »
Hi Chris
Thanks again for your input always a good read and food for thought would jest like to clarify the following if I may.

you said
Quote
The grafting-in of believing Gentiles into the nation of Israel, only took place during the Acts period, with the hope of making Israel Jealous. Then Israel, because of their failure to acknowledge Christ as their Messiah, was laid aside (temporarily).
 
* Now salvation has been sent to the Gentiles (Acts 28:28), independent of Israel, and believers from Israel and the nations are made One in Christ Jesus, this is the Church which is the One Body, of which Christ is the Head.  It was never joined to Israel and it never will be.   

On what scripture do you base your statement that it was only under the acts period that the gentiles were grafted in to the tree I can't find anything in scripture to support this.

the question is what is this olive tree not an ordinary tree obviously so it has to be symbolic is it the tree of life maybe.
The branched which were Israel were cut of and removed hence the saying not my people God prunes the tree then he grafts in all those that have faith in Jesus Christ Jews and gentiles and this engrafting has continued until the present day.

when Israel was cut of the tree remained root and trunk and new branches were grafted in to receive all the nourishment from the root which is Christ we cannot be separated from Christ.

And in the end times Israel will be Grafted back into there tree and we will all be one in Christ.

Love and Peace
Dave   

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #393 on: January 11, 2018, 09:49:47 AM »
Quote
@davetaff:
the question is what is this olive tree?

Hello Dave,

I will look at this question first, because it is essential that we understand what the olive tree represents, isn't it? before we approach your other question.  We must go to Jeremiah 11:16 (which I shall partially quote):-

'The LORD called thy name,
A green olive tree,
fair, and of goodly fruit: ... ... ... ... ...
and the branches of it are broken.'


* Not only does Paul take the figure of the olive tree, and the broken branches from Jeremiah, but he also refers to Jeremiah 31:31, in Romans 11:27, where the olive tree is once more complete.

'Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel,
and with the house of Judah
... '

(Jer 31:31)

* There are some who have sought to show that the olive tree of Romans 11 is to be found in Christendom today, but such teaching is contrary to Jeremiah 11 and 31 and Romans 11 alike.

* The book of Jeremiah consists of 51 prophecies, each introduced by some phrase as, 'The word of the Lord came'. The opening prophecy is indicative of all the rest:-

'See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms,
to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.'

(Jer 1:10)

* The subjects of this prophecy are clearly 'nations' and 'kingdoms', not churches, either real or professing.  Also the prophecy is two-fold: first, judgment in the form of 'rooting out', and then, restoration in the form of 'planting'.

* The second prophecy in Jeremiah occupies only two verses, which are worth quoting:-

'Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
"Jeremiah, what seest thou?"
And I said, "I see a rod of an almond tree."
Then said the LORD unto me,
"Thou hast well seen:
for I will hasten my word to perform it."

(Jer 1:11-12) 

* The word for 'almond tree' is the Hebrew 'shaked, and the word for 'hasten' is 'shoked', the almond being called the 'Watcher' or 'early waker'.  When the time comes for the people of Israel to be restored, the same word is again used in Jeremiah 31:28-31, (which I shall partially quote):-

'And it shall come to pass,
that like as I have watched over them,
(Heb. 'shoked')
to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict;
so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD. ... ...
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:'

(Jer.31: 28 & 31)

* Moreover, in verses 36 & 37 Israel are assured that they shall not be cast off on account of their misdeeds - a passage which finds an echo in Romans 11:29, 'For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.'

* Returning to the prophecy of Jeremiah, we can observe that where the green olive tree with the broken branches is spoken of, the prophet interprets the symbol as referring to Israel, in Jer. 12:17;-

'Thus saith the LORD against all mine evil neighbours,
that touch the inheritance which I have caused my people Israel to inherit;
Behold, I will pluck them out of their land, and pluck out the house of Judah from among them[/b].
And it shall come to pass, after that I have plucked them out I will return, and have compassion on them,
and will bring them again, every man to his heritage, and every man to his land.
And it shall come to pass, if they will diligently learn the ways of My people,
to swear by My Name, The LORD liveth;
as they taught my people to swear by Baal;
then shall they be built in the midst of My people.
But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the LORD.'

(Jer 12:14-17) 

* On examination of the context of Romans 11, we will find that there also, Israel is portrayed as an olive tree:

(see, Romans 10:21; 11:25,26; 11:28.

* There can be no misunderstanding these references that stand on either side of the passage which refers to the olive tree.  It is not a church that is in view, but Israel as a nation.  The 'they' that 'stumbled' are Israel (11:11); 'my flesh' (11:14) refers to Israel, and those who were 'cast away', and who are yet to be 'received', are Israel (11:15).

* I will have to leave this here, and come back to consider 'the branches', and what they signify,  in another post, Dave, but I believe sufficient has been said to show that the figure of the olive tree is referring to Israel as a nation.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #394 on: January 11, 2018, 02:55:16 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your excellent post which I'm sure will be a blessing to many yes I think it is quite clear from the scriptures you have quoted that Israel is the green Olive tree a planting of the lord.

Whilie I was reading  Jeremiah 11:16 I carried on and came to this verse which seamed to jump of the page at me.

  Jer 11:19  But I was like a lamb or an ox that is brought to the slaughter; and I knew not that they had devised devices against me, saying, Let us destroy the tree with the fruit thereof, and let us cut him off from the land of the living, that his name may be no more remembered.
   


I was thinking of the lamb to the slaughter seams to indecate Christ.

Then I did a search for the two olive trees and found these

Zec 4:2  And said unto me, What seest thou? And I said, I have looked, and behold a candlestick all of gold, with a bowl upon the top of it, and his seven lamps thereon, and seven pipes to the seven lamps, which are upon the top thereof:
Zec 4:3  And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
Zec 4:4  So I answered and spake to the angel that talked with me, saying, What are these, my lord?
Zec 4:5  Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:6  Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.
 
Zec 4:11  Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
Zec 4:12  And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Zec 4:13  And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:14  Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.   


So it seams there are two olive trees which both pore there oil into the golden lamp stand the lampstand being the light of the world which would seam to indecated that they bothe come together in Christ.
this may prove you right that there are two seperate groups ( trees ) are these the trees mentioned in Genesis  The tree of life and the tree of Knowledge.

Love and Peace
Dave 


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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #395 on: January 12, 2018, 12:04:56 PM »
Quote
@davetaff:
On what scripture do you base your statement that it was only under the acts period that the gentiles were grafted in to the tree?

Hello Dave,

In my previous post I gave evidence to the fact that Israel is the Olive Tree, which you indicated that you accepted to be true.

* Well Israel ceased to exist as a nation following the catastrophic events of AD.70.  Those that survived were scattered among the nations, and their temple was no more.  This was the execution of the sentence proclaimed by our Lord in Matthew 23 & 24, following the rejection of Christ as both Prophet, Priest and King. The righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, came upon that generation (Matt. 23:37-39), at that time.  The Olive Tree was effectually cut down.

* Acts 28 records the dismissal (or divorcement) of Israel, prior to their Loammi condition, when they became Loammi (ie., 'not My People').  This occurred a short time before AD.70, when

* Following the sentence passed by our Lord in Matthew 23:; 32-39 there was a stay of execution in response to the Lord's words, 'Father forgive them' spoken on the cross. At Pentecost a call to repentance was made, and an interval during the period of the Acts of the Apostles followed, during which opportunity was given for Israel to repent, a period of approximately 40 years.  This period only revealed what our Lord Jesus Christ already knew, that the Jews of the dispersion would manifest the same hardness of heart that had characterised the Jews at Jerusalem.  Paul in his first letter to the Thessalonians makes this clear:-

For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God
which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus:
for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen,
even as they have of the Jews:
Who both killed the Lord Jesus,
.. and their own prophets,
.... and have persecuted us;
...... and they please not God,
........ and are contrary to all men:
Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved,
to fill up their sins alway:
for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.'

(1 Thess. 2:14-16)

* and in Romans 10:21, which, with Thessalonians was written during the Acts period, Paul recalls the words of God spoken by Isaiah, to Israel:-

'But to Israel he saith,
"All day long I have stretched forth my hands
unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

 
* The 'dismissal' of Israel was the putting into effect of the long threatened 'divorcement' of that people, prophesied by the Old Testament prophets.(Jeremiah 3; Ezek.16; Isaiah 62)

* In Acts 28, the quotation from Isaiah 6:9,10, sets the seal upon that point in time as being significant for Israel. (The fulfilment of the warning given in Acts 13:40-41):-

'And he said, Go, and tell this people,
"Hear ye indeed, but understand not;
and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy,
and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed. ..."

(Isaiah 6:9,10)

* Our Lord quotes it Himself in Matthew 13, and in John 12:36-43, at a time of crisis and rejection by Israel.  Paul by repeating our Lord's words at this time of further crises and final rejection by Israel, does not use the word, 'fulfilled'.

'Therefore speak I to them in parables:
because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith,
By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand;
and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
For this people's heart is waxed gross,
and their ears are dull of hearing,
and their eyes they have closed;
 lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.'

(Mat 13:13-15)

* Compare:-

'And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed,
after that Paul had spoken one word,
"Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand;
and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing,
and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears,
and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.'

(Act 28:25-29) 

* This is as far as I can go here, Dave, forgive me if it proves inadequate, you must look at these things for yourself, before the Lord, like myself.

May you be blessed as you consider these things.
In Christ Jesus
Chris


Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #396 on: January 12, 2018, 04:16:47 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for another great post there is very little to take issue with all pretty strait forward and lots of good scripture to back it up but sorry about the but there's always one sorry.

you said.
Quote
The Olive Tree was effectually cut down.     

the scriptures do not say the tree was cut down but only the branches were cut of in which case the tree remained so that the wild olive branches could be grafted in which means the tree cannot be cut down otherwise they would be lost as well so the tree has to remain.
so the question still remains were there branches grafted in after acts 28

Sorry to be a pain.

Love and peace
Dave

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #397 on: January 13, 2018, 07:28:24 PM »
Quote
@davetaff:
... the scriptures do not say the tree was cut down but only the branches were cut of in which case the tree remained so that the wild olive branches could be grafted in which means the tree cannot be cut down otherwise they would be lost as well so the tree has to remain.
so the question still remains were there branches grafted in after acts 28

Hi Dave,

No reason to apologise for asking a further question, I thank you for it.

* First of all, regarding the branches that were broken off, they were the unbelieving among Israel, the remaining branches constituting the remnant.  Into the place from which the unbelieving of Israel had been broken off, the Gentile believer had been grafted, 'contrary to nature.'

* The root and fatness of the olive tree belonged to Israel, and if Israel had repented, and had been restored at that time, no Gentile would ever have shared it with them, even temporarily.  It was something exceptional that was in view.  It was to provoke Israel to jealousy.

* The word, 'provoke' is used three times, twice in Romans 11, in verses 11 and 14, while in verses 17-24 instead of stating the fact for a third time, the apostle uses the figure of the olive tree.

* When an olive tree ceases to bear fruit, the insertion of a wild graft had the same effect upon the tree that Paul hoped the insertion of the Gentile would have had on Israel; it provoked the flagging olive tree to 'emulation'.  The same thing is done to other fruit bearing trees, such as the pear.

* The fact that the Gentiles who believed had received 'the blessing of Abraham' in the form of the promised 'spirit' (Gal.3:14), and that they possessed the gifts associated with Pentecost (1 Cor. 14:21) was intended to provoke Israel to wake up to the fact that their unique position was going.  The whole point of the olive tree in Romans 11 lies in the purpose with which the wild olive was grafted in:  - namely to provoke the flagging tree (Israel) to jealousy.  Gentile nations are not in view in Romans 11, for such cannot be addressed as 'brethren', neither do they stand 'by faith'.

* If, as some teach, the 'olive tree' position still continues after Acts 28, then let's consider what the Apostles words imply[/b].  Into that same olive tree from which some of the branches had been broken out, God assures us that He will graft them in again!  Also, that when this happens Israel as a nation will be restored. How is it possible for Israel to be grafted into any existing Christian community?

* There is but one answer.  Only while Israel existed as 'a people' was it possible for believing Gentiles to be grafted in among the other believing branches, and so become linked with the blessing of Abraham, and partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree.  The Apostle quotes Isaiah 59:20, where the Deliverer Who comes out of Zion shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.  Jacob, means literally, the people of Israel.  Moreover, under the terms of The New Covenant, the forgiveness of sins leads to the restoration of the nation (Jer. 31:31-37).

* No, the Apostle does not actually speak of the cutting down of the olive tree in Romans 11, but only of 'some of the branches' having been broken off. The answer to this is that Romans was written prior to Acts 28, and the hope was, even at that late hour, that Israel would indeed be saved. Also, if the olive tree survived the crisis of Acts 28, where is it?  For Israel is still Loammi, ie., 'not My People'(Hos.1:10).

Hoping this helps.
In Christ Jesus
Chris


Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #398 on: January 15, 2018, 02:57:28 PM »
Hi Chris
Thanks again for another good post as you os rightly say only some of the branches were cut of this most mean that some remained I am thinking people like Abraham Moses David the prophets all those chosen by God to do his work here on earth.

If this is so then the olive  tree is still a tree even if some of the branches have been broken of the tree remains as the following will show.

Zec 4:11  Then answered I, and said unto him, What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?
Zec 4:12  And I answered again, and said unto him, What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?
Zec 4:13  And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
Zec 4:14  Then said he, These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth.     


Here we see that there were two olive trees before the lord they seam to be a permanent fixture they are also likened to two olive branches of course our Lord is also called the branch.
so are these two trees or branches Israel and the Christians pouring   there oil into the golden lamp now a few verses concerning the branch.

Isa 4:2  In that day shall the branch of the LORD be beautiful and glorious, and the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for them that are escaped of Israel.

 Isa 11:1  And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:
Isa 11:2  And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

 Isa 60:21  Thy people also shall be all righteous: they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

 Jer 23:5  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
Jer 23:6  In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Jer 33:15  In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.
 


Love and Peace
Dave

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #399 on: January 15, 2018, 04:10:05 PM »
Hello Dave,

Even though you said that you agreed that Israel was the Olive Tree, your continued argument appears to indicate that you do not agree at all. 

Israel's roots still remain, and will sprout again. (Isaiah 37:31-32; Isaiah 6:13). 

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris