Author Topic: Genesis and the OT  (Read 6961 times)

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Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #384 on: January 02, 2018, 05:12:48 PM »
@davetaff

Hi Dave,

The New Man (as you know) is another name for the new nature that the believer receives, as one who has been born from above, by the Spirit of God, on the basis of the finished, sacrificial work of Christ the Son, by the will of God the Father.  It is not a reference to Christ Himself.

Although the New Nature is also spoken of as 'Christ Spirit (pnuema Christu), or the spirit of Christ which indwells the believer in the form of the new nature.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris
Thank you for your reply concerning the new man how do you read the following.

Eph 2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
   


the two spoken of here must be the Jew and the gentile and the one new man has to be Christ the sum total of this is Christ in the image of God.
So what God declared in Genesis has been accomplished.

Eph 4:24  And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
   


The new man we put on is Christ we are clothed with his righteousness.

Col 3:10  And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11  Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
   


The one who has created the new man is God and the new man is the image of God all this will come together when our Lord returns to claim his bride.

I an not saying that God created Christ he existed befor the world was.

Love and Peace
Dave   

Offline Cariad

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #385 on: January 02, 2018, 06:41:05 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your reply concerning the new man how do you read the following.

Eph 2:15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

the two spoken of here must be the Jew and the gentile and the one new man has to be Christ the sum total of this is Christ in the image of God.
So what God declared in Genesis has been accomplished.

* The one new man is the combined company of both Jew and Gentile believers, united as equals, into one body, of which Christ is the Head.  This equality and unity was unique to this company, formed following the fulfilment of the prophecy concerning the blindness of Israel, which came to fruition in Acts 28:28, with the quotation from Isaiah 6.

Quote
Eph 4:24  And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 

The new man we put on is Christ we are clothed with his righteousness.

* The new man referred to here is the new nature, created in righteousness and true holiness,

Quote
Col 3:10  And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

* This is referring to the new nature, too.

Quote
Col 3:11  Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.   [/color]

The one who has created the new man is God and the new man is the image of God all this will come together when our Lord returns to claim his bride.

*  This is referring to the Church of the One Body, of which Christ is the Head.   When we all come in the unity of the faith unto a perfect man (Eph.4:13). Whether we will be united with the Bride of the Lamb only God knows:  but the Body of Christ cannot also be the Bride of the Lamb.

In Christ Jesus
Chris


Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #386 on: January 03, 2018, 04:03:59 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your reply jest a few questions if I may.

you said.
Quote
The new man referred to here is the new nature, created in righteousness and true holiness   

Why cant the new man here refer to Christ.

Gal 3:27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Quote
This is referring to the new nature, too   

not sure what you mean by new nature as the verse above says we have put on Christ and Christ is the new man ( Adam )

Quote
  This is referring to the Church of the One Body, of which Christ is the Head.   When we all come in the unity of the faith unto a perfect man (Eph.4:13). Whether we will be united with the Bride of the Lamb only God knows:  but the Body of Christ cannot also be the Bride of the Lamb.

In Christ Jesus   

when we all come to unity in Christ then man will be in the image of God creation will be complete.

why cant the body be the bride.

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Cariad

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #387 on: January 03, 2018, 06:55:51 PM »
Hello Dave,

Thank you for your questions.
 
Why cant the new man here refer to Christ.

* This was in reference to Ephesians 4:24:-

'And that ye put on the new man,
which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.'

(Eph 4:24)

The context of these verses (Eph.4:17-32), relate to manner of life, of putting off the old man and putting on the new man: it is the practical outworking of the doctrine of Romans 6:6 & Colossians 3:9:- ' ... our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be rendered inoperative, that henceforth we should not serve sin', We have by the faith of Christ,' put off the old man with his deeds', and 'put on' the new man, which is created by God in righteousness and true holiness, as opposed to seeking a righteousness of our own, and a spurious holiness borne of religious observance, rites and the shadows of which Christ is the reality.

Quote
Gal 3:27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

not sure what you mean by new nature as the verse above says we have put on Christ and Christ is the new man ( Adam )
when we all come to unity in Christ then man will be in the image of God creation will be complete.

*  Again Dave, we have to keep within the context of the passage, and not mix God's metaphors, for in doing so we could bring error into this delicate balance of truth. Here in Galatians 3:27:-

'For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free,
there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.'

(Gal 3:26-29)

* The thing is, Dave, in the flesh these men were very different from one another, Jew as opposed to Greek, bond as opposed to free, male as opposed to female, These differences though present, were immaterial, because they had put on Christ.  This was their standing before God, Christ was their covering, and as such they were the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.  That united them into one family, the family of God.

* The difference is subtle but necessary in order to try the things that differ.
'
Quote
why can't the body be the bride.

'Which is His body,
the fulness of Him that filleth all in all.'

(Eph 1:23) 

'For we are members of His body,
of His flesh, and of His bones.'

(Eph 5:30)
 
'Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you,
and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ
in my flesh for His body's sake, which is the church:
'
(Col 1:24)

(Eph. 1:23; Eph. 2:16; Eph.4:4, 12, 16;  Eph. 5:23, 28, 30)

* There can be no doubt as to what, 'The Body', is can there?  It is 'the Church' of Ephesians 1:22-23. Whose hope and blessings are to be enjoyed in heavenly places, in Christ Jesus; and not in the new Jerusalem, the heavenly city, which is to come down out of heaven to the new earth.

--------------

* Revelation 21:17 - 22:5; and 22:17 describes, 'The Bride the Lamb's Wife': it is the city for which Abraham looked.
* Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26, 
* Rev. 3:5, 12, 21; Rev. 21:7.
* John 3:29
* Matt.19:28 
* Jer. 31:32
* Ezek. 16:7-14, 32, 38 (Ruth 3:9)(Num. 14:34); Jer.3:1,14
* Isaiah 50:1; Isa. 62:4;
* Hosea chapters 2 & 3.

* The Bride of the Lamb must be distinguished from the national restoration of Israel, set forth in the symbol of a wife divorced and taken back, forgiven and blessed.  It is a believing, overcoming remnant which is depicted under the figure of a Bride.  The heavenly city is reserved for the heavenly calling of the kingdom.  Abraham, though he had the land as an assured inheritance, yet, as an 'overcomer' looked higher, and waited for the heavenly city, whose builder and maker is God.

* In Revelation 19 and 21, it is the Lamb Who is the Bridegroom.

* In the new creation, when all the redeemed of all ages are raised, the Church which is His Body, the perfect MAN, or husband, and the Church which is the Bride may re-enact in its full spiritual sense, the union of the first man and woman (Gen. 2:21-24), but that lies beyond the present limits of the ages and dispensations.  The Church which is His Body is one company, with a calling that is unique and distinct.  The Church of the Bride is another company with a calling unique and distinct, and until God joins these two together let no man attempt to do so.

 In Christ Jesus
Chris


PS:
Forgive me, Dave, I know that these answers are inadequate, but the subjects themselves are not easily explained in the space afforded, or within a time which would be acceptable.  I have given appropriate references, to get a picture of how the Scriptures use the word 'bride' for example, and also to those 'overcomers' who will, like Abraham, have a place there within it's walls.

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #388 on: January 05, 2018, 11:51:09 AM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for another good post a lot to take on board but I don't think we are to far apart.

If I understand you right you are saying that Jews and Christians are two separate groups and this is true at the present time but I believe in the end times we will all be united in one body Christ as Paul makes plain.

. For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. (Compare)

 17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; note

 18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

 19  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

 20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

 21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

 22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

 24  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?     


We will all be united in one body which is Christ this is the new man in Gods image the last Adam.

We put of the old man the first Adam and put on the new man Christ and became part of the new creation a new creature.



 17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.     


Like I said I don't think we are to far apart we jest see thing from different perspectives as you know I always see thing from the perspective of creation which I believe is still going on.

Love and peace
Dave

Offline Cariad

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #389 on: January 06, 2018, 03:20:55 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for another good post a lot to take on board but I don't think we are to far apart.

If I understand you right you are saying that Jews and Christians are two separate groups and this is true at the present time but I believe in the end times we will all be united in one body Christ as Paul makes plain.

. For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. (Compare)

 17  And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; note

 18  Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

 19  Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

 20  Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

 21  For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

 22  Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 23  And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

 24  For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?     


We will all be united in one body which is Christ this is the new man in Gods image the last Adam.

We put of the old man the first Adam and put on the new man Christ and became part of the new creation a new creature.



 17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.     


Like I said I don't think we are to far apart we jest see thing from different perspectives as you know I always see thing from the perspective of creation which I believe is still going on.

Love and peace
Dave

Hello Dave,

It would be good to think we were not so very far apart in our thinking, but I think we are.

Your choice of Bible reference does not describe the Church which is His Body, for that company is independant of Israel as a nation. There is no grafting-in taking place now, for Israel is in a lo-ammi condition. 

In the Body of Christ,  Jew and Gentile are equal, whereas at the time of the writing of Romans this was not so, Gentiles were still far off from God, and required to be grafted-in to Israel (the Olive Tree), for salvation was of the Jew. Only at the end of the Acts period was salvation sent to the Gentiles, after Israel was laid aside (temporarily) in unbelief.

Only then could the Church which is the Body of Christ be formed, when the Gentile became, 'nigh' unto God in Christ, only then could both parties be equal and form a joint-Body which was One with Christ in all respects.

The Church which is the Body of Christ is described only in the prison epistles of Paul (Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon), for prior to that the knowledge of it was, 'hid in God', and therefore unrevealed. When members of this company come into the unity of the faith, they will be (corporately) a Perfect Man in Christ, with an inheritance far above all in heavenly places, in Christ.

In Christ Jesus
Chris



Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #390 on: January 06, 2018, 04:29:47 PM »
Hello Dave,

It would be good to think we were not so very far apart in our thinking, but I think we are.
Hi Chris I think maybe I an not explaining my self very well. 

Your choice of Bible reference does not describe the Church which is His Body, for that company is independant of Israel as a nation. There is no grafting-in taking place now, for Israel is in a lo-ammi condition. 

I agree Israel and the church are separate at the present time Israel have been separated from the Olive tree and the church has been grafted in and is nourished with the sap of the tree I think maybe this is the tree of life which is Christ but as you sat Israel  is in a lo-ammi condition but this will change at some point in the future

In the Body of Christ,  Jew and Gentile are equal, whereas at the time of the writing of Romans this was not so, Gentiles were still far off from God, and required to be grafted-in to Israel (the Olive Tree), for salvation was of the Jew. Only at the end of the Acts period was salvation sent to the Gentiles, after Israel was laid aside (temporarily) in unbelief.

I agree with the above statement   

Only then could the Church which is the Body of Christ be formed, when the Gentile became, 'nigh' unto God in Christ, only then could both parties be equal and form a joint-Body which was One with Christ in all respects.

The Church which is the Body of Christ is described only in the prison epistles of Paul (Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon), for prior to that the knowledge of it was, 'hid in God', and therefore unrevealed. When members of this company come into the unity of the faith, they will be (corporately) a Perfect Man in Christ, with an inheritance far above all in heavenly places, in Christ.

I can agree with this also maybe jest change this wording a little ( a Perfect Man in Christ ) I would like to say Christ is the perfect man in the image of God head and Body.   

Love and Peace
Dave

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Offline Cariad

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #391 on: January 09, 2018, 03:20:36 PM »
Quote
davetaff:
Quote
Cariad:
Your choice of Bible reference does not describe the Church which is His Body, for that company is independent of Israel as a nation. There is no grafting-in taking place now, for Israel is in a lo-ammi condition.

I agree Israel and the church are separate at the present time Israel have been separated from the Olive tree and the church has been grafted in and is nourished with the sap of the tree I think maybe this is the tree of life which is Christ but as you sat Israel  is in a lo-ammi condition but this will change at some point in the future.

Hello Dave,

* The grafting-in of believing Gentiles into the nation of Israel, only took place during the Acts period, with the hope of making Israel Jealous. Then Israel, because of their failure to acknowledge Christ as their Messiah, was laid aside (temporarily).
 
* Now salvation has been sent to the Gentiles (Acts 28:28), independent of Israel, and believers from Israel and the nations are made One in Christ Jesus, this is the Church which is the One Body, of which Christ is the Head.  It was never joined to Israel and it never will be.

Quote
davetaff:
Quote
Cariad:
In the Body of Christ,  Jew and Gentile are equal, whereas at the time of the writing of Romans this was not so, Gentiles were still far off from God, and required to be grafted-in to Israel (the Olive Tree), for salvation was of the Jew. Only at the end of the Acts period was salvation sent to the Gentiles, after Israel was laid aside (temporarily) in unbelief.
I agree with the above statement 

 *Good. :)
Quote
davetaff:
Quote
Cariad:
Only then could the Church which is the Body of Christ be formed, when the Gentile became, 'nigh' unto God in Christ, only then could both parties be equal and form a joint-Body which was One with Christ in all respects.

The Church which is the Body of Christ is described only in the prison epistles of Paul (Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, 1 & 2 Timothy, Titus and Philemon), for prior to that the knowledge of it was, 'hid in God', and therefore unrevealed. When members of this company come into the unity of the faith, they will be (corporately) a Perfect Man in Christ, with an inheritance far above all in heavenly places, in Christ.
I can agree with this also maybe jest change this wording a little ( a Perfect Man in Christ ) I would like to say Christ is the perfect man in the image of God head and Body. 

Our Lord is not called, 'the perfect man', in Scripture, even though we know that He was, and is portrayed so in Luke's gospel, as 'The Branch' - of Zechariah 6:12:-

'And speak unto him, saying,
"Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying,
Behold the man whose name is The BRANCH;
.. and He shall grow up out of his place,
.... and He shall build the temple of the LORD:
Even He shall build the temple of the LORD;
.. and He shall bear the glory,
.... and shall sit and rule upon His throne;
...... and He shall be a priest upon His throne:
........ and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.'
(both roles)
(Zec 6:12-13)

* This has a future application, but had the potential to be fulfilled at the Lord's first advent, if Israel had not rejected Him.

----------------

'The Perfect Man' - is taken from Ephesians 4:13, and applies to the Church which is His Body,' the fulness that filleth all in all'.

'For the perfecting of the saints,
for the work of the ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith,
and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
unto A PERFECT MAN,
unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

That we henceforth be no more children,
tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine,
by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
From Whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth,
according to the effectual working in the measure of every part,
maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

(Eph 4:12-16)

----------------

'But now in Christ Jesus
ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh
by the blood of Christ.

For He is our peace,
Who hath made both one,
and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in His flesh the enmity,
even the law of commandments contained in ordinances;
for to make in Himself of twain ONE NEW MAN, so making peace;
And that He might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross,
having slain the enmity thereby:'

(Eph 2:13-16)

* This is 'the One New Man', who as a corporate company, will become 'The Perfect Man', in Christ Jesus their Lord and Head.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Chris