Author Topic: Genesis and the OT  (Read 5928 times)

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Offline Cariad

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #336 on: October 04, 2017, 04:28:34 PM »
Thank you for replying, Dave, (@davetaff)

... The scripture tell us that Israel is God son dose it not out of Egypt I called my son if Israel is Gods son then it stands to reason Israel is Adam.

* No, it does not indicate that, you have merely assumed that, Dave.

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Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.   

This is the state of the world during the flood and so God begins a new creation as everything god had created before was in the ark the only thing missing was Mankind in Gods image the whole of scripture is about this proses.

* Again, this is only your assumption, Dave, it is not what we are told in God's Word.

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Until Christ is united with his bride he is not complete as the first Adam was united with his bride so must the last Adam be united with his bride the church.

* This is your own interpretation and application, Dave, and is not what the Word of God says.

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I would have thought that was self evident the church is a multitude of people.

* Assumption, again, Dave.

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God created Israel as his son therefore he is the image of God but went astray.

* This is your assumption too, Dave, and is not the testimony of Scripture.

* God's Word is meant to be read and believed, not re-interpreted according to our own understanding.

'Trust in the LORD with all thine heart;
and lean not unto thine own understanding.'

(Pro 3:5)

In Christ Jesus
Cariad 

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #337 on: October 04, 2017, 06:18:21 PM »
Thank you for replying, Dave, (@davetaff)

Quote from: davetaff on Today at 04:14:13 PM
... The scripture tell us that Israel is God son dose it not out of Egypt I called my son if Israel is Gods son then it stands to reason Israel is Adam.


* No, it does not indicate that, you have merely assumed that, Dave.
the scriptures says God called his SON out of Egypt and I believe what it says   


Quote
Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.   

This is the state of the world during the flood and so God begins a new creation as everything god had created before was in the ark the only thing missing was Mankind in Gods image the whole of scripture is about this proses.


* Again, this is only your assumption, Dave, it is not what we are told in God's Word.

How would you say the world looked during the flood     

Quote
Until Christ is united with his bride he is not complete as the first Adam was united with his bride so must the last Adam be united with his bride the church.


* This is your own interpretation and application, Dave, and is not what the Word of God says.

The scriptures say that Adam and Eve became one and the same thing will happen to the last Adam the first Adam is the pattern of the one who is to come which is Christ     

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I would have thought that was self evident the church is a multitude of people.


* Assumption, again, Dave.

yes an assumption but a pretty good one the church has been growing for the last 2000 years so I assume there would be quite a few members don't you     

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God created Israel as his son therefore he is the image of God but went astray.


* This is your assumption too, Dave, and is not the testimony of Scripture.

the testimony of scripture is God calls Israel his son and I believe what the scriptures say if Gods son then he is Adam if not who or what is Israel why was he created for what purpose or was he jest a botched job     

* God's Word is meant to be read and believed, not re-interpreted according to our own understanding.

I agree I don't think I have reinterpreted it I have only applied the creation story to mankinds history I don't think I have added anything to it jest looked at it from a different angle.
       


'Trust in the LORD with all thine heart;
and lean not unto thine own understanding.'
(Pro 3:5)



In Christ Jesus
Cariad 

Love and Peace
Dave   


Offline Cariad

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #338 on: October 05, 2017, 05:58:40 PM »
@davetaff

God says what He means and means exactly what He says. 

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #339 on: October 07, 2017, 06:36:06 PM »
@davetaff

God says what He means and means exactly what He says. 

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Hi Chris
At least we can agree on this if little else you keep saying I make assumptions without giving your own views on the scripture I post to support what I say.

Love and peace
Dave

Offline Cariad

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #340 on: October 08, 2017, 05:00:13 PM »
Hi Chris
At least we can agree on this if little else you keep saying I make assumptions without giving your own views on the scripture I post to support what I say.

Love and peace
Dave
Hello Dave,

I am sorry that you think I have not commented on the verses you provided, I will put that right by going back over your entry again,

The scripture tell us that Israel is God's son dose it not out of Egypt I called my son if Israel is Gods son then it stands to reason Israel is Adam.

* Matthew 2:15, does say, 'out of Egypt have I called my Son,' -  the Holy Spirit has accommodated the words of Hosea 11:1, and used them in relation to the Lord Jesus Christ and the occasion of His being brought out of Egypt. God spoke of Israel as 'My son, even My firstborn' in Exodus 4:22, in comparison with the 'firstborn' of Egypt; yet Adam is not spoken of in this way, so why do you associate Israel with Adam?

Quote
Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.   

This is the state of the world during the flood and so God begins a new creation as everything god had created before was in the ark the only thing missing was Mankind in Gods image the whole of scripture is about this proses.

Until Christ is united with his bride he is not complete as the first Adam was united with his bride so must the last Adam be united with his bride the church.

* This was indeed the state of the earth in Genesis 1:2, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.  This is not said concerning the flood of Noah's day, though is it?

* Man in God's image was in the ark, in the persons of Noah and his family.
 
* What scriptural warrant do you have for comparing The Lamb and His Bride with Adam and Eve, Dave? The Holy Spirit does compare Adam to Christ yes, but not in relation to the Bride of the Lamb, so, with respect, what gives you the right to do so?

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I would have thought that was self evident the church is a multitude of people.

*  'The Bride' is the Holy city, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven: it is this city which is spoken of as, 'The Bride, the Lamb's wife', and the divinely appointed inhabitants of it.

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God created Israel as His son therefore he is the image of God but went astray.

* Where does it say that Israel is the image of God, Dave?

I don't see that my doing this has helped in the least, for the same questions arise.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #341 on: October 09, 2017, 04:23:11 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your post You said

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* Matthew 2:15, does say, 'out of Egypt have I called my Son,' -  the Holy Spirit has accommodated the words of Hosea 11:1, and used them in relation to the Lord Jesus Christ and the occasion of His being brought out of Egypt. God spoke of Israel as 'My son, even My firstborn' in Exodus 4:22, in comparison with the 'firstborn' of Egypt; yet Adam is not spoken of in this way, so why do you associate Israel with Adam?   

Because from the texts you have given above its abundantly clear that God sees Israel as his son and then Luke tells us Adam is Gods son.

Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.   

So Adam is the son of God and Gad says " out of Egypt I called my son " I think that's plain to see.

Quote
* This was indeed the state of the earth in Genesis 1:2, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.  This is not said concerning the flood of Noah's day, though is it   

Gen 7:17  And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
Gen 7:18  And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
Gen 7:19  And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Gen 7:20  Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.
   


As we see from the above passage the waters covered the face of the earth even the mountains are covered God had returned the earth to the same state as we see in Gen 2.2

Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.   

Quote
* Man in God's image was in the ark, in the persons of Noah and his family. 

I have to disagree an ordinary man such as my self bares no resemblance to God the only two men in scripture who fit the bill is Israel and Christ and we know that Israel was a nation and Christ on his return and united to his body will be the same.

Quote
What scriptural warrant do you have for comparing The Lamb and His Bride with Adam and Eve, Dave? The Holy Spirit does compare Adam to Christ yes, but not in relation to the Bride of the Lamb, so, with respect, what gives you the right to do so   

The first and the second Adam the first Adam became complete when he became one with Eve the two became one and what happens to the first Adam happens to the last Adam which is Christ as Paul tells us.

Rom 5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
   


Quote
*  'The Bride' is the Holy city, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven: it is this city which is spoken of as, 'The Bride, the Lamb's wife', and the divinely appointed inhabitants of it.
   

I agree and when the bride and groom are united and become one Gods purpose of creation will be finished man in Gods image Jesus Christ Our Lord.

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* Where does it say that Israel is the image of God, Dave? 

In Genesis let us make Man ( mankind ) in our image this will be achieved in Christ.

Love and Peace
Dave






Offline Cariad

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #342 on: October 09, 2017, 08:41:43 PM »
Quote
@davetaff:
Hi Chris
Thank you for your post You said

Quote
* Matthew 2:15, does say, 'out of Egypt have I called my Son,' -  the Holy Spirit has accommodated the words of Hosea 11:1, and used them in relation to the Lord Jesus Christ and the occasion of His being brought out of Egypt. God spoke of Israel as 'My son, even My firstborn' in Exodus 4:22, in comparison with the 'firstborn' of Egypt; yet Adam is not spoken of in this way, so why do you associate Israel with Adam?
 

Because from the texts you have given above its abundantly clear that God sees Israel as his son and then Luke tells us Adam is Gods son.

Luk 3:38  Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.   

So Adam is the son of God and Gad says " out of Egypt I called my son " I think that's plain to see.
Hello Dave,

Thank you for responding to my post. 

I asked you why you associate Israel with Adam? You tell me that it is plain to see from the quotations from Scripture that I have given.  Yet it is far from plain, Dave.
 
I agreed that God refers to Israel as His son in Exodus 4:22-23, and that in Matthew 2:15, quoting from Hosea 11:1, the Holy Spirit used the words, 'out of Egypt have I called my son', (which was obviously prophetic) in relation to His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ, Who had came out of Egypt.  That is His prerogative, because it is His Word, He can use it as He chooses.

You quote Luke 3:38, to prove that Adam is also called God's son.
However if you look at the text of  Luke 3:23-38, the words 'the son', in the verses following verse 23, are all in italics, which indicates that they were added by the translators in order to make sense of the passage: they are not in the Greek, from which it was translated.  Only in verse 23 are the words, 'the son', used.

The genealogy of our Lord, through Joseph, (His father under law) is intended to be read with Jesus in mind at each point in the list, in this way,

'And Jesus Himself began to be about thirty years of age,
being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, -
(Jesus) - which was of Heli,
(Jesus) - which was of Matthat, 
(Jesus) - which was of Levi,
(Jesus) - which was of Melchi,
(Jesus) - which was of Janna,
(Jesus) - which was of Joseph,

(Luke 3:23-24)

 --- And so on to the last verse,

(Jesus) - Which was of Enos,
(Jesus) - which was of Seth,
(Jesus) - which was of Adam
(Jesus) - which was of God.

(Luke 3:38)

* However if you choose not to accept this: then even if the text did indeed say that Adam was the 'son of God', then it would be as a created being, like 'the sons of God', the angels who were also created and not begotten.  Only our Lord Jesus Christ can claim to be God's 'only begotten Son'.

* The only time the Holy Spirit uses Adam as a figure of the Lord Jesus Christ, is in Romans, when Adam is spoken of as a figure of 'Him Who was to come' (Romans 5:14). Also in 1 Corinthians 15:22 & 45 in relation to death and resurrection. 

* We should confine our usage to that of the Holy Spirit, for it is His Word and not ours .

That is all I can do this evening.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad
 

Offline Cariad

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #343 on: October 10, 2017, 10:30:05 AM »
Quote
@davetaff:
Quote
* This was indeed the state of the earth in Genesis 1:2, and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.  This is not said concerning the flood of Noah's day, though is it
 

Gen 7:17  And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.
Gen 7:18  And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
Gen 7:19  And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
Gen 7:20  Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

As we see from the above passage the waters covered the face of the earth even the mountains are covered God had returned the earth to the same state as we see in Gen 2.2

Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Hello Dave,

With respect, to assume that the earth was in the same state after the flood of Noah's day, as it had been in Gen. 1:2 is simply unfounded in Scripture:  for did not the dove, sent out of the ark by Noah, return after the flood with an olive leaf in her beak (Gen. 8:11) showing that the flood waters were abating, and that the olive tree at least still lived; and did she not fail to return at all when sent out at a later date, intimating that there were trees and sustenance for her outside of the ark? (Gen.8:12)

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@davetaff
Quote
* Man in God's image was in the ark, in the persons of Noah and his family.


I have to disagree an ordinary man such as my self bares no resemblance to God the only two men in scripture who fit the bill is Israel and Christ and we know that Israel was a nation and Christ on his return and united to his body will be the same.

So, Dave, you do not believe such scriptures as, Genesis 1:27 and Genesis 9:6, which tells us that man is made in God's image?  In His likeness? Remembering that the reference in Genesis 9:6 comes after the fall of man, and yet still states that man is made in God's image, so that the fall makes no difference to that fact.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad