Author Topic: Genesis and the OT  (Read 5957 times)

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Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #328 on: August 19, 2017, 05:54:51 PM »
Hi Chris
thank you for your reply I apologise if I have misrepresented you it was never my intention sorry.

It seams we are going round in circles I know I'm a stubborn old man but what I believe is important to me and has lead me to Jesus Christ my lord and saviour so I do not wish to abandon them.
everything I say is based in scripture if I misinterpret it the only answers I get is some one else's interpretation I am not having a go at you I value all your posts and know the are sent with love for witch I thank you.

so may be we can continue slowly a little at a time to see if we can begin to understand one another better I would like to start with this verse if I may.

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:


I know I have asked this question before but I never seam to get a satisfactory answer usually no answer at all my explanation is God is saying he is telling us the end from the beginning.
To me this means the beginning is Genesis and the end is revelations so in the beginning God is telling us the whole history of man kind.
So this means to me that genesis is about what god has done what he is doing and what he will do until we come to the end of revelations.

Sorry for being a pain

Love and Peace
Dave         

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #329 on: September 27, 2017, 05:26:14 PM »
Hi

Isa 46:10  Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:     

So what is the end is it not the new heaven and new earth of course that's not the end that's the new beginning and this happens after the millennial reign of Christ which is the end of this creation.

The millennial reign of Christ is the seventh day of this creation it's also God the father's Sabbath rest its when he hands everything over to his son Jesus Christ to finish this creation.

So what are we told at the beginning the story of creation and more specifically the creation of man in Gods image and the only one to fit that description of course is Jesus Christ.

Heb_1:3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;   

the express image of his person this is said of no other person Christ is the end of creation he is the last Adam the first Adam being Israel.

In my next post I will compare Israel and Christ side by side and we will see the same story unfold.

Love and Peace
Dave   

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #330 on: September 28, 2017, 12:41:22 AM »
Hello Dave, (@davetaff)

You have said that you have asked many times what God means by His words, in Isaiah 46:10. These words have a context don't they? and to take it out of it's context can only lead to misapplication.

* What is written?

'Remember the former things of old:
for I am God, and there is none else;
I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
and from ancient times
 the things that are not yet done, saying,
"My counsel shall stand,
and I will do all my pleasure
:... ..."

(saiah 46:9,10)

* Who is speaking?

'Remember the former things of old:
for I am God, and there is none else;
I am God, and there is none like me,'

(Isa 46:9)

* To whom does He speak?

'Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob,
and all the remnant of the house of Israel
,
which are borne by me from the belly,
which are carried from the womb:
And even to your old age I am He;
and even to hoar hairs will I carry you:
I have made, and I will bear;
even I will carry, and will deliver you.
To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal,
and compare me, that we may be like?'

(Isa 46:3-5) 

 *  Of whom is God speaking?

'They lavish gold out of the bag,
and weigh silver in the balance,
and hire a goldsmith;
and he maketh it a god:
they fall down, yea, they worship.
They bear him upon the shoulder,
they carry him,
and set him in his place,
and he standeth;
from his place shall he not remove:
yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer,
nor save him out of his trouble.
Remember this, and shew yourselves men:
bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.

(Isa 46:6-8)

* At what time?

'The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz,
which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem
in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.'

(Isa 1:1)

'In the year that king Uzziah died ... ... '
(Isa 6:1)

* What was God's intention?

'Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.
Remember the former things of old:
for I am God, and there is none else;
I am God, and there is none like me
,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
and from ancient times the things that are not yet done,
saying, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"
Calling a ravenous bird from the east,
the man that executeth my counsel from a far country:
yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass;
I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
I bring near My righteousness;
it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry:
 and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
'

(Isa 46:8-13)

'Former things' - See also Isaiah 45, Isa.42:9;  Isa.65:17; Deut.32:7; Neh.9:7-37; Dan 9:6-15.

* The important thing is that God's council will stand, and He will do, 'all His pleasure.'

* I believe that the things being declared are all His wonderful works from the beginning, 'declaring the end from the beginning' is something only God can do, for He has made it impossible for man to know it apart from His revelation (Eccl.3:11), and from ancient times He has made known by the prophets, in each dispensation, the things that are to come to pass.

Praise His Holy Name!

May His Word speak.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #331 on: September 28, 2017, 04:24:09 PM »
Hello Dave, (@davetaff)

You have said that you have asked many times what God means by His words, in Isaiah 46:10. These words have a context don't they? and to take it out of it's context can only lead to misapplication.

* What is written?

'Remember the former things of old:
for I am God, and there is none else;
I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
and from ancient times
 the things that are not yet done, saying,
"My counsel shall stand,
and I will do all my pleasure
:... ..."

(saiah 46:9,10)

* Who is speaking?

'Remember the former things of old:
for I am God, and there is none else;
I am God, and there is none like me,'

(Isa 46:9)

* To whom does He speak?

'Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob,
and all the remnant of the house of Israel
,
which are borne by me from the belly,
which are carried from the womb:
And even to your old age I am He;
and even to hoar hairs will I carry you:
I have made, and I will bear;
even I will carry, and will deliver you.
To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal,
and compare me, that we may be like?'

(Isa 46:3-5) 

 *  Of whom is God speaking?

'They lavish gold out of the bag,
and weigh silver in the balance,
and hire a goldsmith;
and he maketh it a god:
they fall down, yea, they worship.
They bear him upon the shoulder,
they carry him,
and set him in his place,
and he standeth;
from his place shall he not remove:
yea, one shall cry unto him, yet can he not answer,
nor save him out of his trouble.
Remember this, and shew yourselves men:
bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.

(Isa 46:6-8)

* At what time?

'The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz,
which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem
in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah.'

(Isa 1:1)

'In the year that king Uzziah died ... ... '
(Isa 6:1)

* What was God's intention?

'Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.
Remember the former things of old:
for I am God, and there is none else;
I am God, and there is none like me
,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
and from ancient times the things that are not yet done,
saying, "My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"
Calling a ravenous bird from the east,
the man that executeth my counsel from a far country:
yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass;
I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
I bring near My righteousness;
it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry:
 and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
'

(Isa 46:8-13)

'Former things' - See also Isaiah 45, Isa.42:9;  Isa.65:17; Deut.32:7; Neh.9:7-37; Dan 9:6-15.

* The important thing is that God's council will stand, and He will do, 'all His pleasure.'

* I believe that the things being declared are all His wonderful works from the beginning, 'declaring the end from the beginning' is something only God can do, for He has made it impossible for man to know it apart from His revelation (Eccl.3:11), and from ancient times He has made known by the prophets, in each dispensation, the things that are to come to pass.

Praise His Holy Name!

May His Word speak.
In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Hi Chris
Thank you for your post some excellent scriptures which I think support what I have said before.

God is speaking to Israel through the prophet Isaias but Gods word is for everyone to all generations and what he is saying is from the beginning and that's what Genesis means he tell us what is going to happen in the end.

The final act of Gods creation is man ( mankind ) in the image of God and like I said in my previous post that is Jesus Christ our Lord.

Isa 46:3-5 In this quote we can plainly see that God is the creator or father if you like of Israel which would make him Adam ( out of Egypt I called my son ) and as Adam he is.

Rom_5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
   


From this we can see that Adam and Christ are similar in many ways except for sin of course in the flesh Adam is the elder brother who kills the younger brother here we are back in Genesis its the same story.

we see through out Genesis that the younger brother is always chosen over the elder there has to be a reason for this is it God telling us what will happen in the future.

 Isa 46:6-8   Here God is telling Israel what he is doing wrong worshiping idols instead of him.

Quote
I believe that the things being declared are all His wonderful works from the beginning, 'declaring the end from the beginning' is something only God can do, for He has made it impossible for man to know it apart from His revelation (Eccl.3:11), and from ancient times He has made known by the prophets, in each dispensation, the things that are to come to pass   

Yes I agree I believe Genesis is Gods plan for mankind I believe we need to take genesis and the story of creation lift it up and spread it over the whole history of Israel and Christianity starting with Noah.

Man in Gods Image I Christ at the rapture this is the end of this creation.

I may not be very active the next few days I have family coming to vist from abroad but I will be back.

Love and Peace
Dave
 

     

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #332 on: September 29, 2017, 09:19:01 AM »
Hello Dave, (@davetaff)
 
How we interpret the types of Christ found in the Old Testament should be determined by the way that the Holy Spirit uses them in the New Testament.  That is the measure whereby we can determine what is truth and what is error.

Does the content of your theory regarding  Adam and Noah etc., measure up to that standard?  If so it should be easily confirmed by pointing to what the Holy Spirit says.

In Christ Jesus
Chris





       

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #333 on: October 03, 2017, 05:34:48 PM »
Hello Dave, (@davetaff)
 
How we interpret the types of Christ found in the Old Testament should be determined by the way that the Holy Spirit uses them in the New Testament.  That is the measure whereby we can determine what is truth and what is error.

Does the content of your theory regarding  Adam and Noah etc., measure up to that standard?  If so it should be easily confirmed by pointing to what the Holy Spirit says.

In Christ Jesus
Chris     

Hi Chris
Thank you for your reply what I have to say concerning Adam being Israel and we should apply the creation account starting with Noah makes perfect sense to me and over the time we have discussed this subject I have given many scriptures to support it.

so I believe my theory messures up to that standard In many ways it boils down to what dose " man in Gods image" mean there is only one man in the whole history of mankind who is the image of God and that is Christ.
So we need to look at Christ at his second coming when he is united with his bride and they become one this is man in the image of God and this is what Paul tells us.

2Co 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Heb_1:3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 

Rom_5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

   


The first two quotes tells us Christ is the image of God the last one tells us that Adam is the figure of the one to come which is Christ.

When Christ is united with his body his bride he will be a multitude of people not one man this is the image of God.

And the only other one that fits that bill is the Nation of Israel.

Love and Peace
Dave 

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #334 on: October 03, 2017, 06:33:05 PM »
Hi Chris
... what I have to say concerning Adam being Israel and we should apply the creation account starting with Noah makes perfect sense to me and over the time we have discussed this subject I have given many scriptures to support it.

* Thank you for your patience, Dave,
Forgive me, but just because something makes perfect sense to you, does not make it right. Where does it say that Adam is Israel? Or, that the creation account starts with Noah?

Quote
so I believe my theory measures up to that standard In many ways, it boils down to what dose " man in Gods image" mean there is only one man in the whole history of mankind who is the image of God and that is Christ.

* But we are told repeatedly that man was made in the image of God, aren't we? (Gen.1:27; 9:6)
* Yes, the Lord Jesus Christ was 'the image of God' in a way that we could never be. (2 Cor. 4:4)

Quote
So we need to look at Christ at his second coming when he is united with his bride and they become one this is man in the image of God and this is what Paul tells us.

* Where are we told that this constitutes, 'man in the image of God', Dave?

Quote
2Co 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Heb_1:3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Rom_5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

The first two quotes tells us Christ is the image of God the last one tells us that Adam is the figure of the one to come which is Christ.

* Yes, I agree.

Quote
When Christ is united with his body his bride he will be a multitude of people not one man this is the image of God.

* Where are we told this, Dave?

Quote
And the only other one that fits that bill is the Nation of Israel.

* Again, where are we told that the nation of Israel is the image of God?

* With respect, Dave, If the God's Word does not confirm what you have written, then it is simply conjecture and not scriptural fact.

With love in Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #335 on: October 04, 2017, 04:14:13 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your post You said.

Quote
Thank you for your patience, Dave,
Forgive me, but just because something makes perfect sense to you, does not make it right. Where does it say that Adam is Israel? Or, that the creation account starts with Noah?
     

The scripture tell us that Israel is God son dose it not out of Egypt I called my son if Israel is Gods son then it stands to reason Israel is Adam.

Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.   

This is the state of the world during the flood and so God begins a new creation as everything god had created before was in the ark the only thing missing was Mankind in Gods image the whole of scripture is about this proses.

Quote
  Where are we told that this constitutes, 'man in the image of God', Dave 

Until Christ is united with his bride he is not complete as the first Adam was united with his bride so must the last Adam be united with his bride the church.

Quote
Quote
2Co 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Heb_1:3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Rom_5:14  Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

The first two quotes tells us Christ is the image of God the last one tells us that Adam is the figure of the one to come which is Christ.


* Yes, I agree.   

It's nice to know we can agree on somethings  :thumbs_up:

Quote
Quote
When Christ is united with his body his bride he will be a multitude of people not one man this is the image of God.


* Where are we told this, Dave?   

I would have thought that was self evident the church is a multitude of people.

Quote
Quote
And the only other one that fits that bill is the Nation of Israel.


* Again, where are we told that the nation of Israel is the image of God?
   

God created Israel as his son therefor he is the image of God but went astray.

Love and Peace
Dave