Author Topic: Genesis and the OT  (Read 5923 times)

Description: Finding Christ in the OT

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Cariad

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #312 on: August 06, 2017, 01:57:18 PM »
Hello Dave, (@davetaff),

* With the words of Proverbs 30:5,6; and Revelation 22:18,19, ringing in my ears, I look at Rev.21:1.

'And I saw a new heaven and a new earth:
for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;
and there was no more sea.'

(Rev 21:1)

* Chapters 21:1-22:5, concern the new earth and those who will be alive upon it after all the judgements we have been considering have come to an end. John faithfully records what he sees, 'and I saw', he does not add his own thoughts or seek to interpret what he sees, he simply writes down what is before his eyes.

* John saw a 'new heaven and a new earth'.  Looking at the word translated, 'new', which is (Strong's No.G2537) Gr. 'kainos', it means 'new' in regard to 'freshness' rather than to 'age'. Which is worth keeping in mind.

* John refers to, 'the first heaven and the first earth'; and the word, 'first', is (Strong's No. G4413) Gr. 'protos', meaning 'former'.  So the former heaven and earth have given place to that which is not called, 'second', but 'new'.

* In Genesis 1:1 we are told that, 'in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth', this was the first heaven and first earth: but,  2 Peter 3:5-7, tell us that they perished, or passed away.  The second heavens and earth ('which are now'), are kept in store, reserved unto fire (2 Peter 3:7).  That fire is the means by which they shall, 'pass away' (2 Peter 3:10), and the new heavens and the new earth come into being.

* Isaiah 51:6,16 and Isaiah 65:17 confirms this:-

'Lift up your eyes to the heavens,
and look upon the earth beneath:
for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke,
and the earth shall wax old like a garment,

and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner:
but my salvation shall be for ever,
and my righteousness shall not be abolished.'

(Isa.51:6)

'And I have put my words in thy mouth,
and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand,
that I may plant the heavens,
and lay the foundations of the earth,

and say unto Zion, 'Thou art my people.'

(Isa.51:16)

'For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth:
and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.'

(Isa 65:17)

* We are all familiar with the words, very often written on placards, 'the end of the world is nigh', but that is not true; for it is the, 'age.' that passes away.   This, 'passing away', is spoken of in (Matt. 5:18; Matt. 24:34,35; Mark 13:30,31; Luke 16:17; Luke 21:33).  All will be 'new', not merely in regard to time, but in 'kind' and 'quality'.  The heavens will be new, and the earth new, there will be 'no more curse' and therefore no more sin, or suffering.

Praise God!

In Christ Jesus
Cariad


PS:
At the flood, in Noah's day, the earth was destroyed, and the living creatures within it,
(except for Noah and his family and the creatures God told Adam to take into the ark),
but the heavens were not destroyed. (Gen.9:11)
-------------------
1) The heaven and the earth which were created. 'in the beginning' ( Gen 1:1)
2) The heavens and the earth which were created during the six days.  'Which are now' (Gen.1:3-2:3; 2 Peter 3:7)
3) The new heaven and new earth (2 Peter 3:13; Rev.21:1)

Cariad

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #313 on: August 07, 2017, 12:24:48 PM »
Hello Dave,(@davetaff),

In reply #782, in the study on Revelation, you said you would like to discuss elements concerning Genesis in my entry (reply#781) further, but here, in this thread, rather than disrupt the Revelation study.  So I have copied it and pasted it here as you can see (reply #312). I kept it whole, because of the context.

* I shall await your comment.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
Cariad


PS: I hope your grandsons didn't wear you out, by the way. :D
(Psa.127:3-5)

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #314 on: August 07, 2017, 02:56:24 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your post the part of the above post that interests me most is

Quote
* In Genesis 1:1 we are told that, 'in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth', this was the first heaven and first earth: but,  2 Peter 3:5-7, tell us that they perished, or passed away.  The second heavens and earth ('which are now'), are kept in store, reserved unto fire (2 Peter 3:7).  That fire is the means by which they shall, 'pass away' (2 Peter 3:10), and the new heavens and the new earth come into being.
   

What I find interesting is Genesis 1:1 God created the heaven and the earth this was a finished work a complete creation that for what ever reason went wrong so god destroyed it with a flood.
the time span between verse 1 and 2 we don't know we are not told and it don't concern us God destroys the world with a flood this is Noahs flood.
God begins a new creation with Noah and his family being that most of the things God created are on the ark God dose not need to recreate them.
The only thing missing on the ark is man in Gods image so God creates Israel this is the man in his image I also think the whole story from Noah to Christ is the story of what went wrong with the first creation.

I believe that much of the imagery of the OT comes from what was on the ark the lion of Juda was not Israel depicted as a bull or an ox etc.

this creation will take 7 days to complete that is 1000 years for 1 day another piece of imagery is the 4th day when God creates the sun the light of the world which of course Christ coming into the world and the creation of the moon which represents the church and the stars all there children.

You also said.
Quote
PS:
At the flood, in Noah's day, the earth was destroyed, and the living creatures within it,
(except for Noah and his family and the creatures God told Adam to take into the ark),
but the heavens were not destroyed. (Gen.9:11)
-------------------
1) The heaven and the earth which were created. 'in the beginning' ( Gen 1:1)
2) The heavens and the earth which were created during the six days.  'Which are now' (Gen.1:3-2:3; 2 Peter 3:7)
3) The new heaven and new earth (2 Peter 3:13; Rev.21:1)   

This is roughly what I have said above so maybe we are not so far apart.

Love and Peace
Dave

   

Cariad

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #315 on: August 07, 2017, 04:08:09 PM »
Quote
@davetaff: (Reply#314:
Quote
Cariad:
* In Genesis 1:1 we are told that, 'in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth', this was the first heaven and first earth: but,  2 Peter 3:5-7, tell us that they perished, or passed away.  The second heavens and earth ('which are now'), are kept in store, reserved unto fire (2 Peter 3:7).  That fire is the means by which they shall, 'pass away' (2 Peter 3:10), and the new heavens and the new earth come into being.
What I find interesting is, in Genesis 1:1 God created the heaven and the earth, this was a finished work, a complete creation, that for what ever reason went wrong, so god destroyed it with a flood.

The time span between verse 1 and 2? We don't know, we are not told, and it don't concern us, God destroys the world with a flood, this is Noah's flood.

Hello Dave, (@davetaff,

I am going to have to go from point to point.

* The destruction which took place between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, to make the earth, 'without form and void', cannot be the flood of Noah's day, for from the six days of creation which followed, until the birth of Noah was approximately 1,056 years.
Quote
@davetaff:
God begins a new creation with Noah and his family, being that most of the things God created are on the ark, God dose not need to recreate them.
The only thing missing on the ark is man in Gods image, so God creates Israel, this is the man in his image. I also think the whole story from Noah to Christ is the story of what went wrong with the first creation.

* God began His creation with the six days recorded in Genesis 1:3 onward.
* Man was made in the image of God, (Gen.1:27; Gen.9:6)
* What makes you believe that Israel is, 'man in God's image'?
* Can you explain how the story from Noah to Christ is the story of what went wrong with the first creation, please, Dave?
Quote
@davetaff:
I believe that much of the imagery of the OT comes from what was on the ark, the lion of Judah, was not Israel depicted as a bull or an ox etc.
* The cherubim represent creation in (Eze.1:10), [Man, Lion, Ox, Eagle]

'As for the likeness of their faces,
they four had the face of a man,
and the face of a lion, on the right side:
and they four had the face of an ox on the left side;
they four also had the face of an eagle.'

Quote
@davetaff:
this creation will take 7 days to complete that is 1000 years for 1 day another piece of imagery is the 4th day when God creates the sun the light of the world which of course Christ coming into the world and the creation of the moon which represents the church and the stars all there children.
* On what scriptural basis does your understanding of these things rest, Dave?
Quote
@davetaff:
Quote
Cariad:
At the flood, in Noah's day, the earth was destroyed, and the living creatures within it,
(except for Noah and his family and the creatures God told Adam to take into the ark),
but the heavens were not destroyed. (Gen.9:11)

1) The heaven and the earth which were created. 'in the beginning' ( Gen 1:1)
2) The heavens and the earth which were created during the six days.  'Which are now' (Gen.1:3-2:3; 2 Peter 3:7)
3) The new heaven and new earth (2 Peter 3:13; Rev.21:1)
This is roughly what I have said above so maybe we are not so far apart.

Love and Peace
Dave

* I don't think this is in line with what you have said, Dave, I'm sorry

In Christ Jesus
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #316 on: August 07, 2017, 05:44:23 PM »
Hi Chris
We need to count the days of creation starting with Noah for 7000 years this is the big picture of creation the man in Gods image on the 6th day is Christ.

Don't forget God tells us the end from the beginning the end being Christ.


28  And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Interesting that God tells Adam to replenish the earth this reminds of what St Peter has to say concerning the new heaven and earth

Have to go

Love and Peace
Dave

Cariad

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #317 on: August 08, 2017, 06:31:26 AM »
Hi Chris
We need to count the days of creation starting with Noah for 7000 years this is the big picture of creation the man in Gods image on the 6th day is Christ.

Hello again, Dave,

* Are you basing your reckoning regarding the 7000 years on 2 Peter 3:8?  If so, on what Scriptural authority?  For 2 Peter 3:8, must be understood in relation to what follows in verse 9, Peter is urging his readers to consider how different a space of time must appear to mortal man and to God who is eternal.

* Gen.1:26-28, tells us that mankind (both male and female) were made in the image of God, on the sixth day.

Quote
Don't forget God tells us the end from the beginning the end being Christ.

* Would you please explain what you mean by this, Dave?

Quote
28  And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Interesting that God tells Adam to replenish the earth this reminds of what St Peter has to say concerning the new heaven and earth

* Do you mean 2 Peter 3:4-7?  If so - yes it is.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour
Cariad

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #318 on: August 08, 2017, 04:03:41 PM »
Hello again, Dave,

* Are you basing your reckoning regarding the 7000 years on 2 Peter 3:8?  If so, on what Scriptural authority?  For 2 Peter 3:8, must be understood in relation to what follows in verse 9, Peter is urging his readers to consider how different a space of time must appear to mortal man and to God who is eternal.

* Gen.1:26-28, tells us that mankind (both male and female) were made in the image of God, on the sixth day.

* Would you please explain what you mean by this, Dave?

* Do you mean 2 Peter 3:4-7?  If so - yes it is.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour
Cariad

Hi Chris
Thank you for your post

2Pe 3:4  And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5  For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6  Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
   


Peter is telling us here that the first heaven and earth was destroyed by water this Noahs flood this happened between verse 1 and 2 of genesis then God begins a new creation or as Peter puts it " But the heavens and the earth, which are now" this creation began here.

Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
   


This describes pretty well what the earth looked like after Noahs flood and God begins a new creation it will take 7 days and what peter says about these days is

2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
   


I see this as a statement of fact that Gods days of creation ar a 1000 years long the creation story in Genesis is telling us what will happen during those 7000 years or 7 days not forgetting that the only thing missing in this creation is man in Gods image and the only one who could possibly fill that roll is God son Jesus Christ our Lord and this will happen at the rapture when the head and body are united then man in Gods image will be complete.

You Asked
Quote
* Gen.1:26-28, tells us that mankind (both male and female) were made in the image of God, on the sixth day.

* Would you please explain what you mean by this, Dave?
 

Gen.1:26-28 this true but has not happened yet but I don't think its a long way of we are close to the end of the 6th day.

God tells us the end from the beginning the beginning is Genesis in Genesis God tells us the whole story of mankind if you like it is a type of prophecy genesis is the blue print Gods plan all things will come to pass according to that plan.

I hope some of this makes sense to you I find it helpful when reading scripture having this in the back ground to measure things against.

Love and Peace
Dave


Cariad

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #319 on: August 08, 2017, 06:09:04 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your post

2Pe 3:4  And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5  For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6  Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
   


Peter is telling us here that the first heaven and earth was destroyed by water this Noahs flood this happened between verse 1 and 2 of genesis then God begins a new creation or as Peter puts it " But the heavens and the earth, which are now" this creation began here.

* If, as you say, Dave, the world was destroyed by a flood, between Gen.1:1 & 2; then it could not have been the flood in which Noah played his part which took place then: For over a thousand years passed before the birth of Noah. The genealogy of Adam to Noah, in Gen.5, records the passage of years with births and deaths, up to his birth.

* I agree that the heaven and earth 'which are now', began at that point, (between Gen.1:1 & 2): but Adam had yet to be created; and without him there could be no Noah.

Quote
Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 

This describes pretty well what the earth looked like after Noahs flood ?

* We can assume that: but we are not told so: for, Gen. 1:2, describes the conditions pertaining, following an earlier destruction by water, not the flood of Noah' s day.

Quote
and God begins a new creation it will take 7 days and what peter says about these days is

2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

* Here you have taken God's Word and used it to give weight to a theory, which has no basis in written fact, I'm afraid. For this verse (2 Pet.3:8) has quite another application within the context in which it is written.

Quote
I see this as a statement of fact that Gods days of creation are 1000 years long the creation story in Genesis is telling us what will happen during those 7000 years or 7 days not forgetting that the only thing missing in this creation is man in Gods image and the only one who could possibly fill that roll is God son Jesus Christ our Lord and this will happen at the rapture when the head and body are united then man in Gods image will be complete.

Gen.1:26-28 has not happened yet but I don't think its a long way of we are close to the end of the 6th day.

God tells us the end from the beginning the beginning is Genesis in Genesis God tells us the whole story of mankind if you like it is a type of prophecy genesis is the blue print Gods plan all things will come to pass according to that plan.

* I won't comment here on the points you have made, for we have discussed them in other threads, individually (eg., the image of God).

* I don't believe in theorising, Dave.  I believe what is written, and keep it within it's context: to do otherwise can only lead to error, and self-delusion; and do despite to the Word of God.

Thank you for your explanation.
May God's Word be the arbitur,
May He give light, and deliver, where it is needed.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad