Author Topic: Genesis and the OT  (Read 5959 times)

Description: Finding Christ in the OT

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Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #304 on: June 13, 2017, 02:16:04 AM »
Hi Q
Thanks for your reply Moses did not enter the promised land because he trespassed against the lord as did all the older generation.


True. [so here Moses never enterd heaven [ giving  a metahor]

So what do we learn from Israel entering the promised land all the older generation died in the desert except for Joshua and Caleb

As in Numbers 14:28-30  ....

So how is Moses a shadow and how are all those people saved [when they never entered heaven] when only Joshua and Caleb - though the rod of Araan budded and  brought forth fruit ! [yet Araan anointed Priest never entered heaven [a shadow] because of his rebellion at the waters of  Meribah...[ we now have confusion with two shadows [ one being the promise of eternal life [old testament v new testament ] as the land of milk and honey is Jesus takimg our place.


They never entered the promised land - so why not - this goes against the general metahor of anointing and being a Christian... [Promised land = Heaven - God]


Here the shadows tend to have no  body


I am not sure where the imputaton of Christ comes in here  apart from the separating of the Old from the New where Jesus imputes His righteousness  - here therefore all the people would have enterd the promised land -in this theology there is no shadow and here you have the imputed righteousness of Christ upon people now where they all enter heaven being chosen/separated/set apart/anointed/.

Maybe this is the meaning of pentecost...

Surely if all these shadow people had the imputed righteousness of Christ - then they would have all entered the promised  = [heaven] - here we have a difficulty in the shadows between the OT and NT.

Surely here -if Abraham never entered heaven  [the land flowing with milk and honey] then neither will we...


So now begins  the argument of Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness

So why did'nt Abraham see the new Land ? being that the promised land was the promise ?


Or was it because of the imputed righteousness of Christ ?


Here the shadow / metaphor of Heaven is a no go...

You will never make it Moses ... and he did not make it.

Either the promised land is a shadow of heaven or it is not - YOU DECIDE

Eiither Moses had the imputed righteousnes of Chirst or it was because Christ saw saw Moses as righteous....

Simply because he believed God ad nothing to do with his acts ... either way he did not enter heaven

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #305 on: June 13, 2017, 05:37:07 PM »
Hi TJ
Thank you for your post some interesting question the first think that hit me was the promised  land a metaphor for heaven I'm not to sure  about that I think it may have bean a metaphor for the garden of Eden the paradise of God and when Israel entered in it was the same as God placing Adam in Eden Israel is Adam.
As for Moses's nobody know's what happened to his body or where may or may not be buried all we know is satan and the angle of the Lord fought over it.

Sorry I have to go but I will be back to try an answer your other questions

Love and Peace
Dave

Offline Tes Johnson

Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #306 on: June 14, 2017, 01:52:01 AM »

Yes well to the Jews eden was heaven [a garden paradise] taking us back to the beginning.


We have no recollection of eden -and so this image/metaphor/ picture/  has no relevance.

I say this because now we are looking back and only see the garden of Eden as a picture/metaphor/image/ and have no idea what it was like.

To Adam and Eve it was reality - yet to us it is a picture/through a mirror/

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #307 on: June 14, 2017, 02:37:44 PM »
Hi TJ
You said
Quote
So how is Moses a shadow and how are all those people saved [when they never entered heaven] when only Joshua and Caleb - though the rod of Araan budded and  brought forth fruit ! [yet Araan anointed Priest never entered heaven [a shadow] because of his rebellion at the waters of  Meribah...[ we now have confusion with two shadows [ one being the promise of eternal life [old testament v new testament ] as the land of milk and honey is Jesus takimg our place.
 

I believe that this is a type of prophecy it tells us what is going to happen in the future the older generation represents Israel much later in history when Christ came and they killed him and were cut of the other metaphor for this is Cain killing Able the older brother killing the younger.

then we have Joshua leading the younger generation into the promised land the land flowing with milk and honey the paradise of God for Adam.
the name Joshua  has the same meaning as Jesus I think it means God saves so Joshua leading the Israelites into the promised land is a mirror image of Christ leading us out of the world and into the true paradise of God.

Quote
Surely here -if Abraham never entered heaven  [the land flowing with milk and honey] then neither will we...

So now begins  the argument of Genesis 15:6 Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness

So why did'nt Abraham see the new Land ? being that the promised land was the promise ?

Well Abraham did enter the promised land and lived there but he did not possess the land except for a field he bought
to bury Sarah in.
God promise was that Abrahams seed would possess the land this had a double fulfilment first when Israel entered with Joshua and secondly when Christ returns and possess the whole of the land of Israel.

Quote
Either the promised land is a shadow of heaven or it is not - YOU DECIDE

Ok I believe the promised land represents the paradise of God which is planet earth we don't go up to heaven heaven comes down to us

 Rev_21:2  And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.


when the bride and groom are married then God will walk amongst us as he did in Eden.
Hope some of this makes sense.

Love and Peace
Dave





 


 

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #308 on: June 28, 2017, 02:28:32 PM »
Hi Tj
On the other hand are we reading the Genesis account from the wrong perspective what I mean is the Genesis account the whole history of mankind from the beginning when God created the heavens and the earth to the end of revelations.

Is the new heaven and earth that God will create the paradise into which he will put mankind and he will walk in the garden with us.

Is Genesis much more that an ancient story I would maintain its the story of Mankind.

Love and Peace
Dave 

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #309 on: July 26, 2017, 04:04:43 PM »
Hi Folks
Something Charid wrote on the revelations thread made me think of this thread and besides we have not bean here for quite awhile.

Charid said

Quote
Quote
By the time that He is reported to have been in Eden, he is already a fallen creature.  In Genesis 1:1 we read that God created The Heaven and The Earth, yet in verse two we read that it 'became' (not 'was') 'without form and void',ie., empty, waste and desolate (see Isa.24:10; Isa.34:11 & Jer.4:23): that God did not make it so, we are told in Isaiah 45:18, 'He created it not in vain.'  So what made it so?   

Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Is this not a statement of Fact everything was finished heaven and earth.

Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Chariad is right here it is no " was without form but "became with out form " as strongs will confirm

H1961

הָיָה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.
Total KJV occurrences: 3502
   


So is verse 2 a reference to Noahs flood and the rest of the creation story about the new creation from Noah to the present day it will take 7 days to complete 7000 years from the time of Noah.

I'll leave it there for now see if any one else feels the same.

Love and Peace
Dave

Cariad

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #310 on: July 26, 2017, 05:02:53 PM »
Hi Folks
Something Charid wrote on the revelations thread made me think of this thread and besides we have not bean here for quite awhile.

Charid said


Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Is this not a statement of Fact everything was finished heaven and earth.

Gen 1:2  And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Chariad is right here it is no " was without form but "became with out form " as strongs will confirm

H1961

הָיָה
hâyâh
haw-yaw'
A primitive root (compare H1933); to exist, that is, be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary): - beacon, X altogether, be (-come, accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), continue, do, faint, fall, + follow, happen, X have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, X use.
Total KJV occurrences: 3502
   


So is verse 2 a reference to Noahs flood and the rest of the creation story about the new creation from Noah to the present day it will take 7 days to complete 7000 years from the time of Noah.

I'll leave it there for now see if any one else feels the same.

Love and Peace
Dave

Hi Dave,

The flood happened many years later, but there could well have been a judgement of a similar nature which took place between Gen.1:1 and Gen.1:2.  However, to speculate about these things when God has remained silent, can lead to theorizing which has no basis in Biblical fact, and that can lead to error.

I have heard strange theories about this, and many have been deluded by them.  The only safe course is to believe what is written in God's Word, and where God is silent, then respect His silence, and remain silent too.

If I thought words of mine would lead others into error I would never contribute in this way again.

In Christ Jesus
Cariad


Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #311 on: July 27, 2017, 03:59:22 PM »
Hi Chris
Thank you for your post Don't worry about leading me astray as you know I have maintained for a long time that we should view this creation account starting with Noah.
and Yes I believe there was a creation before Noah which God destroyed with the flood when everything was destroyed God began a new creation with Noah and everything that was on the ark.

this creation will take 7000 years from Noah I believe this is confirmed by the words of St Peter.

2Pe 3:6  Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7  But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
   

Peter tells us here the world that was and the heavens and the earth which are now  two different earths and then he tells us the time plan.

Love and Peace
Dave