Author Topic: Genesis and the OT  (Read 5925 times)

Description: Finding Christ in the OT

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TJ

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #208 on: July 07, 2016, 02:28:38 AM »
The problem there is that Moses was refused entry into the promised land

That means Moses  along with that entire generation will never be on the new earth [or garden/eden/heaven/paradise - as the Jews saw it]


Either that or Moses is only in heaven [hence the The Transfiguration]

If Moses is not born again "having never crossed the Jordan river"  then what of God's Covenant with Abram and his sons [being a type of Christ]

It seem's strange that all those who were saved from egypt, might now lose  this salvation in the end due to their efforts in trying to follow the God that saved them ! [including Moses and Aaron]

Yet those who walked through the waters of Jordan were doing the same thing..and ended up being unequally yoked with other nations - thus defiling themselves - as they rejected God and worshipped other idols.

So I can't quite see any difference between those who walked through the red sea and those who walked through the Jordan.

The people who were saved through the waters of the red sea - were saved from the egyptian bondage - the second generation were not saved from anything [as far as I can see] and even then the future generations were exiled to babylon only to return after more generations were born to occupy the land of their forefathers.

Only to worship other god's once again and after that we have the minor prophets and we go onto the NT which seems  only to be for the "Matthew 15:24; "the  lost sheep of Israel"

It seems now that no one had any hope until they passed through a river caled Jordan [this again is a mistake in misuse of a metaphor]

Here God saw the "The Faith of the Canaanite Woman"  in Matthew 15:25-27; hey : salvation to the gentiles - now Jesus went on to feed the four thousand -[gentile area] here we begin to see God's heart for the gentiles eg: the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusite..................]

Now lets go to Deuteronomy 20:17 completely destroy them--the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites--as the LORD your God has commanded you

It seems that "what God destroys [rejects] He also saves... as He orders the destruction of the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites - yet He saves a woman who is a Canaanite... and indeed Rahab in the land of Cannaan was saved.

Rahab can be seen as the first genitile convert [never having passed through any waters]








Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #209 on: July 07, 2016, 02:57:13 PM »
Hi TJ
I think maybe you are misunderstanding what I am trying to say everything that happened to Israel is only a shadow of what was to come the realty is Jesus Christ and what he has done and will do.

 Heb 10:1  For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

The whole history of Israel is a type of prophecy God taking Israel out of Egypt is a picture of God taking a people for him self out of the world.
the whole of the OT is a revelation slowly unfolding with ever increasing clarity pointing to our Lord Jesus.

you said
Quote
The problem there is that Moses was refused entry into the promised land

That means Moses  along with that entire generation will never be on the new earth [or garden/eden/heaven/paradise - as the Jews saw it] 

The problem then was there was no forgiveness for sin only the penalty the law provided but now our Passover lamb is sacrificed which provides forgiveness for the whole world past and present so all those who died in the wilderness will have an opportunity to take advantage of that gift of Grace.
So everyone who has died from Adam to to the present will be raised up to face judgement the blood of Christ can cover all our sins if we are willing to repent.
So the object of this thread is to look into these shadows to find Christ he is the answer to all our questions.

Love and Peace
Dave

TJ

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #210 on: July 08, 2016, 01:45:48 AM »
I have no motivation behind my posting [as if to bolster myself up or to make you look less]

The only reason I post is to encourage and motivate people as I am simply getting things sorted out in my own mind and learning at the same time]



Quote
I also believe when Israel passed through the Jordan river it represented being born again the first time they were born was when they passed through the Red sea.

The problem I have with this is that everyone is born through the waters of baptism eg :  1 Corinthians 10:2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

It was not Just because they believed in God or Jesus but simply because they were fleeing the tyranny/bondage/slavery/  of Egypt and its taskmasters.

It is mentioned as a metaphor/shadow as a warning in 1 Corinthians 10:2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

As follows in verse 5  Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them, for they were struck down in the wilderness.

This troubles me - because most people do not follow God and are not baptised through waters [the only way I can associate this with  batism is by using the edwin analogy -eg: http://www.1faith.co.uk/raise-a-debate/re-ot-saints-and-nt-christians-post-split/msg36274/#msg36274.

I actually do not see the OT as a shadow of the NT !


I see God [the Lord] workiing through the Old Testament as He always did in the New  ?

Why do I say this ! well we see God working against the norm and laws of a society in the NT ?

Jesus stirs up the community by working against the grain .


For example "Jesus speaks to woman and raises up  gentiles alongside the Jews , He even raises the dead [gentiles]..

The Lord God [Jesus]  saves a Canaanite woman [in the OT], and we see the same in the NT with Matthew 15:21-28;

The only thing that divides the OT and NT for us is the timing of death on the Cross [timed exactly by the Father to be at the passover]

Jesus /God made a coat way back for Adam and Eve [the blood was shed]




I see white stones were mentioned @

Hi Dave

Another great post, thanks!  I've never connected the High Priest's clothing with the armour of God before - much food for thought.

Also the ephod/breastpiece contained 12 gemstones, each engraved with the name of one of the 12 tribes of Israel (Ex 39:14), to symbolize how the High Priest represented all the people before God.  Similarly our great High Priest Jesus "lives forever to intercede on behalf of those who come to God through him" (Heb 7:25). And according to Rev 2:17 believers will one day be given a white stone with a new name engraved on it, though I don't fully understand what this new name signifies.  Any ideas anyone?

May God encourage and bless us as we search the OT to understand more about Christ.  There is so much in there!

@kim

I live for God speaking now ?

Excellent - look what we see after the people crossed the Jordan in - Deuteronomy 27:2-4   When you have crossed the Jordan into the land the LORD your God is giving you, set up some large stones and coat them with plaster.


A white stone signifies innocence and a black stone is guilty....the white stone is givenj to the overcomers ....

The white stone is again a Jewish phenomenon : - where you killed the lion in an arena  or you won a marathon in a race [Biblical Hermeneutics] - Revelation 2:17 - and so Jesus reversed the order "in that He won the race and conquered death" and He crossed the Jordan.









http://www.1faith.co.uk/raise-a-debate/re-ot-saints-and-nt-christians-post-split/msg36274/#msg36274

TJ

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #211 on: July 08, 2016, 02:04:12 AM »
And so Jesus stirs up the "Jewish community" by making Abraham [a sinner] as a winner of a race [white stone]

How dare God {The Lord - I AM ] do that ?

And who is this Job person ? how dare he be made righteous above the rest - [what is it in a person that God see's ?]

O so Rahab But Joshua spared Rahab the prostitute, with her family and all who belonged to her, because she hid the men Joshua had sent as spies to Jericho--and she lives among the Israelites to this day.


How dare God raise up a prostitute above all of Jericho !

You see the same Jesus in the NT  !

TJ

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #212 on: July 08, 2016, 04:07:33 AM »
The only thing  I can see is the time barrier that we see [that God does not]

in our minuscule lives, all we see is what we comprehend in our short life time, this is the predeptive word of a lamp before our feet and the light for our paths... Psalm 119:105

We hardly begin to understand God before we are dead and burnt up in ashes.


[And all this because we waste space and it costs money to be buried....]

Yet God see's the beginning from the end and knows all about our finite lives [ it is almost like He see's more in us than we do]



Do you really think God cares about whether we passed through the waters of Jordan ?"

I reckon He gets bored with it all !






Offline John

Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #213 on: July 08, 2016, 09:14:21 AM »
Dave,
           As you rightly say the OT is a 'shadow' of what was to come and now has come, the redemer Jesus.
So why are you so interested in examining shadows, when you have the blinding light that is Jesus.

Offline davetaff

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #214 on: July 08, 2016, 09:57:00 AM »
Hi John
I have already found Jesus so the object of the exercise is to help others to find him although the OT is only a shadow of the good things to come it can still teach us a great deal about our Lord not forgetting all scripture is God breathed this thread is for those seeking answers about Christ.

Love and Peace

Dave

TJ

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Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #215 on: July 09, 2016, 01:49:32 AM »
I actually do not see the OT as a shadow of the NT !

What a silly thing to say  @TJ's :D


Quite often we wait on "a confirmation of a word?"

In the same way if we find a "type and an "antitype" then we have the confirmation of the "type"

I'm going to the youngs tranlsation Romans 5:14 YLT  but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of him who is coming.

Now note "a type of him who is coming" [here we see the NT is a shadow of Him who is to come "a shadow of the substance"

In other words what I am suggesting is and what @John unkowingly said is  - "we are blinded by the Light" in the same way as we once walked in darkness.

The Light we see is the light of Jesus which is a Lamp to my feet and a Light to my path [so as I walk through the darkness - I can see ahead of me "one step at a time".

We do not have the full revelation YET - and God's "hidden Will" is not revealed.

It is as if we are given a torch to view parts of a view but not the whole view.....in the same way as we look back in time "it is like looking through binoculars, were we only see parts of a view at one time"

And so believers are blinded by the Light - whereas unbelievers are blinded by satan 2 Corinthians 4:4;

Our finite minds could not possibly comprehend the mind of God to see as He see's.....

We are merely walking in His shadow [in the dust of our Rabbi]

So I agree that the OT is a shadow - but also the NT is a shadow also [a shadow is only cast as we walk with our Lamp or Light]



thanks TJ