Author Topic: Genesis and the OT  (Read 5927 times)

Description: Finding Christ in the OT

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Offline David St Ives

Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #160 on: June 27, 2016, 01:46:25 AM »
Jesus/Y'hushua taught differently to the existing Jewish rabbis in the synagogues. He was not teaching the Torah. He was teaching the new covenant. The Torah was very soon to be obsolete. He was teaching a new way to salvation, different in many ways to what they knew. They marvelled at him, grew in numbers and wanted to learn. It was not the Torah he was teaching. They rabbis rejected what he was teaching. They would not allow their power to be taken from them. If the Torah worked then the son would never have been sent. God does change the rules. That part is obvious. God's purity may not change but the way to him does

TJ

  • Guest
Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #161 on: June 27, 2016, 01:48:16 AM »
Hi TJ

I think our last messages "crossed in the post" (not sure what the internet version of that phrase is!). 

Not sure I understand this - Gen 7:14 was God addressing Abraham, so surely that's the Abrahamic covenant that he's saying can be broken by disobedience?  Any thoughts?

Hmmm ...
Bye for now
Kim

Well no, because this was a covenant  and it could not be broken - and this includes me and you @kim and Guest

The Stars in the sky and the sand on the shore are us......

If it were dependent on Abraham being cicumcised then we look at Romans 2:29 No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a persocommandmentn's praise is not from other people, but from God.

Adam and Eve would not have known this covenant and therefore were innocent of that commandment [later in History] why should Should
Adam and Eve be circumcised ? to be saved !

Read between the covenants ?

aftter reading the entire word of God what is your evaluation ?


The circumsicion agreenment between God And Abraham comes later.

The promises made to Abraham are first decided by God [The Trinity and between them] and then given to Abraham.



Offline David St Ives

Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #162 on: June 27, 2016, 01:58:18 AM »
Covenants can be broken. This is the current problem with Judaism. They still believe that because they were once God's chosen people, this will stand for eternity. The Torah is obsolete. Gone. Finished. That means the covenant is broken. The new covenant is with the messiah, they will never accept that and therefore still following a set of rules that are useless

TJ

  • Guest
Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #163 on: June 27, 2016, 02:04:28 AM »
Jesus/Y'hushua taught differently to the existing Jewish rabbis in the synagogues. He was not teaching the Torah. He was teaching the new covenant. The Torah was very soon to be obsolete. He was teaching a new way to salvation, different in many ways to what they knew. They marvelled at him, grew in numbers and wanted to learn. It was not the Torah he was teaching. They rabbis rejected what he was teaching. They would not allow their power to be taken from them. If the Torah worked then the son would never have been sent. God does change the rules. That part is obvious. God's purity may not change but the way to him does

Exectly @David St Ives

So what is the torah ? an assortment of books written by the inspiration of Gof ?

See  :  Luke 4:18  "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free,



He was  quoting from Isaiah [ THE OLD TESTAMENT] He was preaching at a synagogue ? to the jews ?  this was God ?



Offline David St Ives

Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #164 on: June 27, 2016, 02:24:14 AM »
Let's simplify this. The main doctrine, commandments were given to the Jews and complied within the Torah. This was an exclusive right to them only. They were chosen by God. They abused that right and lost favour with God. Jesus/Y'hushua was sent to fulfil the scriptures and take away the sin of man with the ultimate sacrifice of the covenant of his blood. There are parts of the Torah which form the new covenant, however for the most part, it doesn't. The new covenant, covered in the new testament, includes rules that exist in the Torah. We all know that. It dramatically changes though, from prayer to food, sacrifice, customs etc. In the most part it's drastically different. If you were to compare the Torah rules with the new testament it's obvious. They are both from God but which do you think is relevant now. If you follow the old Torah and choose to ignore the teachings of the messiah you'll see. You'll get nowhere in your understanding of God. It's the wrong key for the door

TJ

  • Guest
Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #165 on: June 27, 2016, 02:27:03 AM »
okay  will let others into this  discussion

And wil retreat for now  :D

Offline kim

Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #166 on: June 27, 2016, 10:02:36 AM »
Hi All
Have read above posts with interest, thanks. Not sure I've much to say at the moment, except that everything in the OT points to Jesus and he said he fulfilled the law rather than abolished it.  So as I see it, it all fits together as one unfolding story of salvation, rather than a radical break between covenants/dispensations.  Maybe that's the 'eternal' covenant TJ is referring to - the fundamental nature of God to bring mercy and justice together?  But as David St Ives  says, the important thing is what we do with the understanding we have now.  If study of the OT enriches that understanding (and I find it does, because I see Jesus on every page!) then it's valuable to study it.  If it confuses us or drags us into irrelevant or time-consuming arguments, then we are probably better to let it go and focus on the finished work of Jesus and the directing of his Holy Spirit in our lives today.  God's big enough to cope with all our different needs!  And one day we will see him face to face and it will all make perfect sense anyway - can't  wait.  But till then, we've got work to do, prayer to offer, worship to undertake, love to share, faith to grow, encouragement to give ...
May our Lord bless us all abundantly as we seek to follow him.
Kim

Offline David St Ives

Re: Genesis and the OT
« Reply #167 on: June 27, 2016, 02:06:06 PM »
You're right Kim, the focus should always be on the present time. The difference in covenants is important though. God knew that his son would be rejected by the Jews. Their hearts were so hardened that they couldn't even recognise the son. Just pause and think about that. He had to be crucified to fulfil the scriptures. It was the final piece of the jigsaw that triggered the new dawn. If it were simply a continuation of time with the scriptures fulfilled then we would be following Judaism in it's wholeness. Christianity is distinctly different. A whole new covenant that requires a break from the old customs of Judaism in many ways. The way we pray, abandon ritual sacrifices, circumcision, sabbath requirements, dietary requirements, places of worship, appearance with regards to religious requirements on hair cutting/covering of head...the list goes on. Although a fulfilment of the scriptures, a new covenant was born that requires a break from the old covenant. The distinction is important. As Jesus/y'hushua said, the only way to the father is through me. He will only know you by knowing him. You can only do that by following his ways, no other. His ways were very different from his forefathers and their customs. The spilling of his blood marked the new way, it changed the way to the father.