Author Topic: The Sabbath  (Read 1407 times)

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Offline francis drake

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2016, 01:48:40 PM »

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Well of course it doesn't "have" to be Sunday.

But imagine for a moment that you are a Christian in the first century, before the invention of the 'weekend'. If the churches are going to agree to meet on one day of the week (and remember that in the secular world, every day is the same), which one should they pick?

They decided on Sunday because it was a day of significance for them - the day of resurrection. And that is the tradition we have inherited.

Why change it? "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"!

The early Christians didn't change the day of rest one little bit. That was done by Constantine in 321 AD.

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Sunday actually made very little headway as a Christian day of rest until the time of Constantine in the fourth century. Constantine was emperor of Rome from AD 306 to 337. He was a sun worshiper during the first years of his reign. Later, he professed conversion to Christianity, but at heart remained a devotee of the sun. Edward Gibbon says, ?The Sun was universally celebrated as the invincible guide and protector of Constantine.?i
 
Constantine's Conversion by Peter Paul Rubens
Source: Wikimedia Commons....
Constantine created the earliest Sunday law known to history in AD 321. It says this:
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On the venerable Day of the sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits: because it often happens that another Day is not so suitable for grain sowing or for vine planting: lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost.
ii[/i]

There is no way that early Christians would align their calendar to that of paganism, nor is there evidence of such until Constantine mandated it in the empire.
Disturb us Lord, when we are too pleased with ourselves. When our dreams have come true because we dreamed too little. When we arrived safely because we sailed too close to the shore. Disturb us Lord, to dare more boldly. To venture on wider seas. Where storms will show your mastery; Where, losing sight of land, we shall find the stars. We ask you to push back the horizons of our hopes; And to push into the future, in strength, courage, hope and love.                     (SIR FRANCIS DRAKE 1577)

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Offline BobbyDazzler

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2016, 09:11:29 PM »
.. is not the celebration of the Sabbath part of the law of Moses

Hi Dave
According to Exodus 20, the Sabbath commandment is in the middle of the ten commandments, the law of God, not in the law of Moses. It's an important distinction, as the ten commandments were placed in the ark of the covenant  (Exodus 40:20) whereas the law written by the hand of Moses was placed (Deut 31:26 ) on the side of the ark.

Best wishes, Bob

Online davetaff

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2016, 02:55:56 PM »
Hi Dave
According to Exodus 20, the Sabbath commandment is in the middle of the ten commandments, the law of God, not in the law of Moses. It's an important distinction, as the ten commandments were placed in the ark of the covenant  (Exodus 40:20) whereas the law written by the hand of Moses was placed (Deut 31:26 ) on the side of the ark.

Best wishes, Bob

Hi Bob
Thanks for pointing that out I had not spotted that before interesting mind you if memory serves the two tablets written by the finger of God Moses smashed did he not then he produced new tablets.
Mind you the law is rather fascinating our lord said nothing would disappear from the law till all was fulfilled what do you think he meant.
Paul said we are not under the law but under grace he also said the law is spiritual and good what do you think he meant by that.
May be we need to start a new thread and not spoil this one.

Love and Peace
Dave       

Offline BobbyDazzler

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2016, 02:13:08 PM »
Hi Bob
Thanks for pointing that out I had not spotted that before interesting mind you if memory serves the two tablets written by the finger of God Moses smashed did he not then he produced new tablets.
You've raised some good questions there!

Regarding the above. You're right, Moses did break the first two tablets. In Exodus 34:1 it reads "And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest." (KJV) These were the ones that were put into the ark in chapter 40.

The other verses you listed are really interesting ones. I'm a bit short for time at present (family, work, etc!) but I'll give these some thought and let you know what my (humble) opinions are. I'm already overdue a response to TJs about the Holy Spirit!  :)
   

Offline BobbyDazzler

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2016, 10:31:23 PM »

Mind you the law is rather fascinating our lord said nothing would disappear from the law till all was fulfilled what do you think he meant.
Paul said we are not under the law but under grace he also said the law is spiritual and good what do you think he meant by that.
May be we need to start a new thread and not spoil this one.

Love and Peace
Dave       

In Matthew 5:18 Jesus says "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."  It looks to me as though Jesus' is saying that the law will be in existence and in force for as long as this world is in existence in its present form. However, which law is Jesus talking about?

I don't believe it is the law of Moses (i.e. the statutes and ordinances that Moses wrote in the book of the law). Paul, in Colossians 2:14, says "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" This law was perceived by the apostles as a burden. In Acts 15, in their letters to the churches in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia, informing the gentile christians of which parts of the law of Moses they were to keep, the apostles wrote "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts 15:28,29).

Consequently, this leaves the law of God, that is the ten commandments. Were these "nailed to the cross"? Some might say so, but then you've got to ask yourself, to which law were John and James referring when they wrote:

"Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law." 1 John 3:4

"If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." James 2:8-10

Notice that James and John are talking about the breaking of a law being sin. These guys were were among the body of elders who pronounced that the gentiles did not have to keep (most) of the law of Moses. So which law were they writing about? Perhaps a clue is given in next verse in James chapter 2:

"For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law." James 2:11


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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2016, 05:23:11 PM »
Hi Bob
 Some good points it is a big subject I think when our Lord said Love God Love thy neighbour love your enemies he meant we kept all the laws of Moses if we failed to Love as he Loved then we transgressed the law.

what did Paul mean with

 Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Was the Law like a tree of knowledge of good and evil remember before the the law there was no transgression so what was good told us what evil was.

Was the ten commandments given to show us what the perfect man in Gods image would be like Christ. is this what  nailing it to his cross meant the sinless man the Epitomy of the law.

Love and Peace
Dave


Offline BobbyDazzler

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #14 on: April 26, 2016, 09:29:02 AM »
I think when our Lord said Love God Love thy neighbour love your enemies he meant we kept all the laws of Moses if we failed to Love as he Loved then we transgressed the law.

Sorry, Dave, I didn't catch what you are getting at. I have an idea what you might mean but could you just elucidate a bit for me please?

what did Paul mean with

 Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.


Romans 7:14 is the pivot point of the chapter. Paul, as far as I can see, is comparing the law (10 commandment law) to a mirror. Just as you can't see the smudge of dirt on the end of your nose until you look into a mirror, you cannot know you are sinning unless you look into the law of God. The ten commandment law is a revelation of the character of God. In verse 12, Paul calls the law  "holy", "just" and "good". These are, of course, attributes of God. Looking at the ten commandment law, you are looking at the holiness of God and are convicted of sin by this holiness.

Paul contrasts his own state to the holiness of God, revealed through His law, by acknowledging his own sinfulness and unrighteousness. In the rest of the chapter he highlights the battle that takes place in us all. We know what is right, due to our knowlege of the law, but have a tendency towards breaking that law. Left to ourselves we are in a hopeless situation.

Was the Law like a tree of knowledge of good and evil remember before the the law there was no transgression so what was good told us what evil was.

Sorry, I don't follow this but it sounds interesting, could you expand on it?

Was the ten commandments given to show us what the perfect man in Gods image would be like Christ.

In my view, the law is perfect and holy. Living a perfect and holy life, Jesus as fully human proved that the ten commandment law (which he had given as fully divine) could be kept in its entirety. The law shows us where we fall down and the state of perfection (i.e. completeness) to which we need to progress. By his life, Jesus, as fully human, shows us that it is only in God's power that we are able to progress to that state of perfection.




is this what  nailing it to his cross meant the sinless man the Epitomy of the law.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I don't believe the ten commandment law was "nailed to the cross". What was nailed to the cross was the law of Moses. This is shown, I believe, by the fact that Paul says in Colossians 2 that the "handwriting of ordinances that were against us" were nailed to the cross. As a result of these ordinances being done away with, laws regarding the sacrificial services in the temple and the festival calendar events of Israel (meat, drink, holy days, new moon, the sabbath days), which, as a shadow of things to come, pointed forward to Jesus' "once for all" sacrifice for sin, are no longer binding on us and so we are no longer liable to be judged by them.

Coming back to the title of the thread, "the sabbath days" mentioned in Col 2:16 I do not read to include "The Sabbath", i.e. the 4th of the ten commandments. I believe that the verse refers only to the sabbaths which made up the cermonial year of Israel.

I hope the above doesn't come across as too garbled. Please let me know if you would like me to expand on it or rephrase.

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Re: The Sabbath
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2016, 02:56:25 PM »
Hi Bob
Good post as usual sorry to be a bit vague will try to do better put it down to old:
to anyone
Quote
Quote from: davetaff on April 24, 2016, 05:23:11 PM
I think when our Lord said Love God Love thy neighbour love your enemies he meant we kept all the laws of Moses if we failed to Love as he Loved then we transgressed the law.

Sorry, Dave, I didn't catch what you are getting at. I have an idea what you might mean but could you just elucidate a bit for me please? - See more at: http://www.1faith.co.uk/raise-a-debate/the-sabbath/msg56243/#new 


All I was trying to say was our lord gave us the Laws of Love they did not cancel the laws of Moses I think Jesus gave them as a command if we obeyed his command to Love God, Love our neighbour, and love our enemies. then we comply with the law Love dose no harm to anyone.

 Rom 7:14  For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

What you wrote about this is good and I agree but it dose not answer what is the spiritual side of the law.
as an example in the law it says   Exo 20:14  Thou shalt not commit adultery. later on it says a woman caught in adultery must be stoned to death.
I believe there is a spiritual side to this in the time of the judges God was the head of Israel and the Priesthood was his helper the woman so when she went after other gods she committed adultery for which she should be stoned and she was stoned by the stone the builders rejected.

On what grounds do I say this on the grounds that Paul uses this obscure law to justify what he says.

 1Co 9:9  For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
1Co 9:10  Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hop

I believe we should see Israel as Adam and the priesthood as Eve so when God brought them into a land flowing with milk and honey you could say it represented Eden and with them they had the tree of knowledge of good and evil the law and Christ who went before them was the tree of life.

Love and Peace
Dave

 
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