Author Topic: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter  (Read 18380 times)

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Serenity

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #96 on: January 14, 2016, 03:56:17 PM »
I wonder if the 24 elders are the head of each tribe in the OT, and the 12 apostles...making up the 24. 

Just musing, as said in the OP this is all exploratory for me. 

Tell ya though the 24 has me thinking.

I seem to remember that in the OT there is really 13 tribes and not 12 because 1 was an adopted son.
The disciples were 13 and not 12, because Judas needed to be replaced.

Not even saying this is relevant, highly likely it isn't, but its just an observation.

Now tiptoes out of the thread after daring to post after 12 pages lol


TJ

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #97 on: January 15, 2016, 02:38:54 AM »
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I wonder if the 24 elders are the head of each tribe in the OT, and the 12 apostles...making up the 24. 

Just musing, as said in the OP this is all exploratory for me. 

Tell ya though the 24 has me thinking.

I seem to remember that in the OT there is really 13 tribes and not 12 because 1 was an adopted son.
The disciples were 13 and not 12, because Judas needed to be replaced.

Not even saying this is relevant, highly likely it isn't, but its just an observation.

Now tiptoes out of the thread after daring to post after 12 pages lol

Yes well they were wearing Crowns of Gold !

You are right @Serenity - in that the 12 tribes can be doubled to represent Israel and the gentiles !

However this picture that John saw kind of gives us an image of things to come maybe ? Or  things already taken place.

So time here is distorted and kind of messes up our theology

Plus as you say there were actually 13 tribes as there was  then Levi - who was Christ at the last supper = 13

Matthias replaced Judas which made 13 in number 

Excellent twist and revelation - as we go from 12 pages to 13 and as  you have now added to the scriptures we now begin to see a bit more "revelation" [ of Course Judas would have had the Holy Spirit available to him] as - " Once born again now not born again" as far as onlookers are concerned.

You have added to the revelation Revelation 22:19;


Again lets ask why there where "24 elders around the Throne of God - when there were 26 ?

@Copernicus B and @davetaff  and @Guest

As we answer one question so another question unfolds - as the more we learn the more there is to learn and every question answered brings two more questions...

But now lets forget about the numbers and symbolism - and consider how John saw  "24 Elders" ?

Could this be a "time" or "day" outside of time ?



TJ

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #98 on: January 15, 2016, 02:16:13 PM »
Then again if Christ was the 13th disciple then Matthias was the 14th  :D

But of course at the actual supper there were 13

Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #99 on: January 15, 2016, 02:29:11 PM »
I wonder if the 24 elders are the head of each tribe in the OT, and the 12 apostles...making up the 24. 

Just musing, as said in the OP this is all exploratory for me. 

Tell ya though the 24 has me thinking.

I seem to remember that in the OT there is really 13 tribes and not 12 because 1 was an adopted son.
The disciples were 13 and not 12, because Judas needed to be replaced.

Not even saying this is relevant, highly likely it isn't, but its just an observation.

Now tiptoes out of the thread after daring to post after 12 pages lol

Hi serenity
I thought about the 12 tribes but could not think of any good reason why they should sit on thrones with Christ except for Joseph who was a saviour to Israel. Interesting to note when Israel blessed Joseph's two sons they both received a half portion each instead of  the eldest getting the whole inheritance so when Joseph died there would still be only twelve tribes but Joseph had a double portion.
maybe the same applies to the apostles if Judas was rejected the apostles chose another and God chose one St Paul question being were they still counted as twelve apostles and if so why.

Love and Peace
Dave       

Serenity

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #100 on: January 15, 2016, 03:23:21 PM »
I was just musing dave to be honest, this is all new ground for me so to speak. 

I think its a good thing when people openly discuss their thoughts and things about God and scripture, I don't think we are meant to keep everything inside our head, if anything I think this can be how God's truths get distorted, because the mind is a battlefield in and of itself. 

People need to stop worrying about being wrong...it doesn't matter if your wrong.  God loves a tryer!

Dawn

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #101 on: January 15, 2016, 11:48:00 PM »
Further thoughts from me on Rev so far are: after judgement of the earthly churches, as expressed in the letters, we read in Rev 4 "what takes place after this" . John then sees Christ seated on a heavenly throne, surrounded by 24 other thrones and seated on them 24 elders. A good question from Dave posed in the previous post is, who are the elders? I agree with you to some extent Dave, in that they are reigning with Christ - because they are sitting on thrones alongside of Christ and the term 'elders' suggests status and authority - however, we are given an explanation later in Rev 7:14 about what the white robes indicate; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. The colour white is also used throughout scripture to indicate purity and righteousness and we are also told in Tim 4:8 and James 1:12 that crowns of life and of righteousness await those who are redeemed through Jesus Christ.

So, what I think John is describing to us in this vision, seated on the thrones, is the church.

As a note here, I do not think we need to get bogged down too much with numbers when reading through Rev as I see them are symbolism only; Christ is portrayed as having 7 horns and 7 eyes, but that is not meant to be understood as literal. Hence, the 24, as in the case of the elder, I see as representative only.

For sure, the church would include those you mentioned, but I am thinking of 1 Cor 6:2 here which tells us "..do you not know that God?s people will judge the world.." and what follows from Rev 5 onwards, from the opening of the scroll of the lamb, is quite clearly a judgement on the world as it is put through great tribulation.

About your question TJ and the resurrection of the dead, the answer to this, I think, is that the Book of Revelation reveals to us a timeline or series of events which explain who will be resurrected and when;

Rev 4: the rapture of the church including all OT and NT saints (ALL believers which btw includes us!!)

Rev 20:4 the resurrection of tribulation saints 

Rev 20:4 also mentions a further resurrection of none Christians

Back to the heavenly throne room for a moment and your question Dave about the seven spirits of God. Yes, I see this as symbolic manifestations of the holy spirit and it is interesting to note that verses 2 and 10 of Zech 4:1 speaks of the ?the  eyes  of  the  Lord  which range to and fro throughout the earth? which corresponds with Rev 5:6 description of the Lamb having seven eyes, which are sent out into all the earth.

TJ

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #102 on: January 16, 2016, 02:15:41 AM »
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Further thoughts from me on Rev so far are: after judgement of the earthly churches, as expressed in the letters, we read in Rev 4 "what takes place after this" . John then sees Christ seated on a heavenly throne, surrounded by 24 other thrones and seated on them 24 elders. A good question from Dave posed in the previous post is, who are the elders? I agree with you to some extent Dave, in that they are reigning with Christ - because they are sitting on thrones alongside of Christ and the term 'elders' suggests status and authority - however, we are given an explanation later in Rev 7:14 about what the white robes indicate; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the lamb. The colour white is also used throughout scripture to indicate purity and righteousness and we are also told in Tim 4:8 and James 1:12 that crowns of life and of righteousness await those who are redeemed through Jesus Christ.

So, what I think John is describing to us in this vision, seated on the thrones, is the church.

As a note here, I do not think we need to get bogged down too much with numbers when reading through Rev as I see them are symbolism only; Christ is portrayed as having 7 horns and 7 eyes, but that is not meant to be understood as literal. Hence, the 24, as in the case of the elder, I see as representative only.

For sure, the church would include those you mentioned, but I am thinking of 1 Cor 6:2 here which tells us "..do you not know that God?s people will judge the world.." and what follows from Rev 5 onwards, from the opening of the scroll of the lamb, is quite clearly a judgement on the world as it is put through great tribulation.

About your question TJ and the resurrection of the dead, the answer to this, I think, is that the Book of Revelation reveals to us a timeline or series of events which explain who will be resurrected and when;

Rev 4: the rapture of the church including all OT and NT saints (ALL believers which btw includes us!!)

Rev 20:4 the resurrection of tribulation saints 

Rev 20:4 also mentions a further resurrection of none Christians

Back to the heavenly throne room for a moment and your question Dave about the seven spirits of God. Yes, I see this as symbolic manifestations of the holy spirit and it is interesting to note that verses 2 and 10 of Zech 4:1 speaks of the ?the  eyes  of  the  Lord  which range to and fro throughout the earth? which corresponds with Rev 5:6 description of the Lamb having seven eyes, which are sent out into all the earth.


Excellent @Dawn great insight

I think it's because people see a significance between symbolism and metaphor language

Here we have a picture of the elders being used as a metaphor /symbolism.

On the one hand we are taught to listen and see - for example "the prodigal son metaphor/picture - that a person can relate to in their lifes"

Now we have an actual vision - but more than a vision an actual real lifting up to the third heaven ......

Where the person is actually there "in person"  [Spirit - note Capital S]


And here as you say "there is the Church"

The "right with God" and the "cleansed by the blood of the lamb"

Righteous not by anything that they have done [ judging those being  judged -  not anything that they have done  ?" 1 Corinthians 6:2; and so I must ask "The Elders are given this authority ? - and @Serenity has confirmed this as the  Now Word @ http://www.1faith.co.uk/articulate/articulate-%28articles%29the-authority-of-jesus-marks-gospel-chapter-1-part-5/msg53432/?topicseen#msg53432

So who puts a person on the ladder to judge others ?- who puts us on the Throne to Judge to world ?

And so we ask ................. 

Does this Judgement begin in this life or the next ? [to some it has already begun in this life - but alas it is not of God]


So what Judgement is right Judgement ?

After all - is this not with  the elders are seated with Christ ? 

Now bounce to this scripture 1 Corinthians 6:2

You see the elders here are Judging alongside Christ  !

Thus the world says "how dare you judge me"

As they Judge "the Church" and so we see people putting themselves onto their own thrones Matthew 20:21
 
And so should Judgement beginning with the house of God" be in this life ?



http://www.1faith.co.uk/articulate/articulate-%28articles%29the-authority-of-jesus-marks-gospel-chapter-1-part-5/msg53432/?topicseen#msg53432

Offline davetaff

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Re: Revelation discussion, chapter by chapter
« Reply #103 on: January 16, 2016, 02:35:46 PM »
Hi Dawn
Good post Tanks some vey good points brought out made me think of who will be judges will it be all believers or will it be those chosen by Christ.

Rev 7:4  And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
 
From the above verses we see there will be a great multitude both Jews and gentiles will they all be judges I don't think so if we look at Rev 20:4 we see (authority to judge was committed.)
It seams to me there are two groups those who are to judge then the rest of believers It seams those who are to judge come first then the rest.

Something we have not looked at in the throne room is the sea of glass my first thoughts were dose it represent peoples as we are told later in rev that seas are peoples and multitudes dose it mean all peoples are transparent to him he sees our thoughts and what's in our heart do you have any thoughts on this.

Love and Peace
Dave